Navy vs Merchant Marine

[QUOTE=“PaddyWest2012;96120”]I am very much all for the continuation of the discussion about the US Navy’s general lack of seamanship or navigational skills. I am not anti-american, I am not anti-military, I am not even anti-navy. I love 'Murica (as it is sometimes called with an over-abundance of enthusiasm) and I love her floating war machine, more power to them both, but as with everything else these days the official nincompoops hired to run these official operations they call the federal government lack the experience of slogging it out in the trenches, so to speak. That is how you end up with the single largest floating killing-machine in the history of the world with seemingly no knowledge what so ever as to which direction the pointy end goes.

It’s not the sailors’ fault, it’s not their lieutenants’ fault, it’s not their captains’ fault, hell it may not even be their admirals’ fault, but it is the fault of the department of the Navy as a whole and the over-all governing body of this nation that young men and women are being sent to sea in ships and don’t even know how to read a compass or tie a bowline. Ask them to fire up the nuclear reactor or launch a missile from the North Atlantic and shove it up the asshole of a termite in North Korea, no problem, have it done in 5 minutes, but ask them to safely navigate an extremely well marked ship channel without hitting anyone or anything, well the jury is still out on that one.

The Bottom line is this: the United States Naval Academy at Annapolis needs to DE-emphasize all their little computer games that teach the kiddos how to fly radio controlled bombes out of submarines and they need to take a note from the nation’s maritime academies and RE-emphasize seamanship and navigational skills, FOR A START. That is the very least they can do but it’s what needs to be done ASAP. It’s time we stopped producing floating computer-geeks and time we started (or restarted, as it were) producing manilla-line-chewing, fire-pissing, octopus-boxing, Davy-Jones’-Locker-escaping, hardcore, tough-as-popeye-on-a-spinach-binge SAILORS.

Oorah.[/QUOTE]

Fuck yeah!

[QUOTE=RubberRhib888;96191]Fuck yeah![/QUOTE]

Set’em up, I’m buying.

During my years in the Navy there were hints of what would become an entirely different Navy then the one we inherited from our World War II fathers. For example, one of my Commanding Officers, a brand new Navy Commander (which is an O5 rank) was a very busy bee, not for the benefit of the squadron rather to make himself look good, in any manner he could, to the upper brass. One comment he made during a squadron meeting was this. “Remember gentlemen, how well you fly your plane is only one item among many on your fitness report.” You could have heard a pin drop when one young Naval Aviator replied, “yea, tell that one to the boys who flew in Midway.” Life in the Navy was changing but there still was enough of the “Old Navy” (if I may use those words) to make life bearable, at times fucking frightening as well as other times when it was a real joy. I consider myself fortunate to have had the experience. I consider myself very fortunate to receive my Honorable Discharge and still in one piece. Others were not so blessed, while there were others who never returned alive.

[QUOTE=Starboard Ten;96188]The main problem with the U.S. Navy is that each person has to change their job every 18 months. Imagine that happening in the merchant marine or in corporate America. One day you are a navigation officer on a patrol vessel, the next you are an engineer on a frigate, the next you are in an Ethics school, the next you are assistant manager for repairs on a destroyer, the next you are a Chaplin, then a gas turbine safety officer, then an administrative aid for an old guy, then Navy Postgraduate School, then CO of a Cruiser… Oh, and throw in a few weeks as a helicopter pilot and base commander at Camp David or a Commissary…

Makes it hard to actually get very good at anything. Even those teaching you are relatively new at their positions. Certainly makes for an interesting career though!

(OBVIOUSLY EXAGGERATING FOR EFFECT). .[/QUOTE]

I think that’s the key. If a merchant crew is running from Port A to Port B and back, same crew, same run etc they get very good at it. If a stranger comes into the port and maneuvers wrongly for the pilot or lines up incorrectly for the breakwater or some such the familiar crew might consider themselves to be better mariners. The mistake is to confuse local knowledge for understanding of the principles.

If crews call at many consonantly changing ports they (hopefully) learn something different. They learn how to evaluate and cope with new situations.

On a ship for ship basis many merchant ships are going to have crews that are far more experienced and have better local knowledge then navy ships and this is going to show but to extrapolate this to include the entire organization is a mistake.

I think saying merchant mariners are better then Navy with the exception that merchant mariners can’t possibly run a vessel as complex as a nuclear-powered submarine or aircraft carrier or deploy a diverse fleet world-wide is an argument that contradicts itself.

K.C.

Just another log to add to the fire. I have sailed on about 50 different vessels in my 32 years out here. At MSC there were a couple guys I worked with who worked on one ship until they made chief. I my opinion they were one trick ponies. Moving people around eliminates clicks on ships. After sailing 1st and chief I always made a new crew member feel welcome and let them know that the regular crew will help them learn all the “top secret” stuff we knew from experience on that vessel. It made my job easier knowing the new guy was up to speed on the plant.

I remember the Brown Fox Bar in Olongopo well. It was the merchant marines first stop on a night out.

[QUOTE=Sweat-n-Grease;96176]I remember Olongapo City ~~~~~ Uh-Oh :D[/QUOTE]

Uh, yeah. I have “heard” of that place, too. . . .

Some damn fine museums there. . .

[QUOTE=Too bad steam is gone;96306]Just another log to add to the fire. I have sailed on about 50 different vessels in my 32 years out here. At MSC there were a couple guys I worked with who worked on one ship until they made chief. I my opinion they were one trick ponies. Moving people around eliminates clicks on ships. After sailing 1st and chief I always made a new crew member feel welcome and let them know that the regular crew will help them learn all the “top secret” stuff we knew from experience on that vessel. It made my job easier knowing the new guy was up to speed on the plant.[/QUOTE]

Nicely posted ~

[QUOTE=Too bad steam is gone;96306]I remember the Brown Fox Bar in Olongopo well. It was the merchant marines first stop on a night out.[/QUOTE]

You can find anything if you look in all the right places.

http://www.subicbaypi.com/sub_barolongapo_brownfox001.htm

[QUOTE=Too bad steam is gone;96306] I worked with who worked on one ship until they made chief. I my opinion they were one trick ponies. Moving people around eliminates clicks on ships. After sailing 1st and chief I always made a new crew member feel welcome and let them know that the regular crew will help them learn all the “top secret” stuff we knew from experience on that vessel. It made my job easier knowing the new guy was up to speed on the plant.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with you TBSIG. I learned this stuff the hard way. When I was c/mate on the tugs or break bulk freighters I was a one man show. I would learn how run all the deck equipment and could get things running smooth by working long hours and running hard. But things changed when I got to one ship with high crew turnover,high tempo operations and multiple cargo decks and lots of deck equipment. No matter how fast I ran, deck ops, was a giant clusterfuck. I had to focus on training the mates and the ABs to help instead of just running hard. Things still don’t always go right but they go better.

That experience completely changed my outlook.

K.C.

[QUOTE=cmakin;96309]Uh, yeah. I have “heard” of that place, too. . . .

Some damn fine museums there. . .[/QUOTE]

Yes, but you need an educated eye to appreciate the displays.
I, of course, was writing a book. Funny, it’s still being written.

[QUOTE=Sweat-n-Grease;96315]Yes, but you need an educated eye to appreciate the displays.
I, of course, was writing a book. Funny, it’s still being written.[/QUOTE]

You probably checked out the exhibits at Marylins fine art museum S&G

[QUOTE=Too bad steam is gone;96319]You probably checked out the exhibits at Marylins fine art museum S&G[/QUOTE]

Yes, in my book there’s an entire chapter devoted to the exquisite exhibits at this fine museum. As I recollect there were several Marylins, one being called Marylin’s (ah, never mind. :cool:)