Does the DP have a sanity check where if the boat/drillship/etc goes from holding position to 100 miles away in 5 seconds the GPS is obviously nuts? Spoofing moving 100 feet every 15 minutes…that would be a hard one to catch.
yes thats easy, slow drift is the hard one as INS also drifts
Any hallfway competent pilot of ships is surely better then fully baked amateur.
You have not answered my questions.
The degree of acuracy required by DP vsls puting a rig in position or installing a windmil or maintaining a fixed position is magnitudes/parsecs away from merchant ship nautical accuracy requirements.
In costal navigation I have other means of verifying position ( radars ,parallel indexing, visual aids , other then GPS systems (if available)
On the open ocean with no restrictions and navigational dangers?? Why should I care abt 0.25 Nm in 1 hr???
I would drink coffee first and light my cigar before bothering to investigate.
Before any electronic sytems availability the accuracy/error of astronomical observation was abt 1.5 Nm and nobody commited suicide because of that, nobody panicked or created super duper hype about it on social media.
Be specific . What nav device do You have in mind (ECDIS??) ,Radar?? binoculars?? , pelorus??? toothpick may be???
Tell me how water speed log or doppler log, magnetic compass is agreeing with each other or with echosounder or with GPS. Are these , except GPS spoofed too ???
Echosounder surely will show me different depth( if available), then the one , I can read/see from the ECDIS electronic chart in GPS spoofed position.
Have You watched this video clip with understanding what the guy says and what is most important, what he has shown
???
What is your age BTW???
Tell me sth about integrated bridge systems on merchant vessels under your command?
What are the elements of such system and what are the regulations regarding ops of such systems??
The topic was broached already and I have not seen or heard none of your balladas there , manifesting cognisance of the topic & flying experiences.
Yes you are right, that sneaky incremental dedicated spoofing may be more difficult to detect and one may have no immediate answer what is causing the UNEXPECTED position change .Is it a strange/unexpected instrument error ( gyro, speed log ) or GPS, that is causing the departure from anticipated course, speed, position.
Example: tanker lured into iranian territorial waters by dedicated incremental spoofing of GPS. So what was the cause - spoofing?
Spoofing was the phenomenon. The rest was, they did not pay attention to ECDIS(chart) comfortable with their track mode ,did not pay attention to their gyro course, to their magnetic course , they did not compare their GPS speed with STW . They did nada, zero, zilch.
So they were either not vigilant enough or they were complete idiots or fully baked amateurs.
Before the word spoofing obtained the status of buzzword among the shore side slackers , AIS peepshow addicts, landlubbers and the whole variety of armchair experts commanding their shrimpboats, 5 mtrs yachts and other canoes/kayaks , one could observe on radar the ground speed ( gps) vector speed and direction flactuating between lets say 5 to 50kts like crazy . So one knew there was something wrong with GPS signals and one was acting accordingly . On one condition !!!
IF ONE WAS WATCHING IT !!! and not watching his girlfirend naked ass and tits on the internet connected mob or tablet.
You surely heard about Navtex warnings, Navarea warnings and other organisations warnings . You need to pay attention to them too as they will warn you in advance about the spoofing present and future. Therefore GPS is the first suspect to take care of on your way to detect by elimination the other electronic toys system errors like speed logs , dopler logs or GPS fed gyro speed/lat errors.
You surely know that on merchant shiips for at least the last 25 years there have been magnetic compass card readers diplayin digital value of the compass near coning position. The signal from this toy can be fed into autopilot ( heading mode) when your gyro is effed up.
Have you figured already how GPS spoofing is affecting the magnetic compass???
I know one trick learned from the PIRATES what was done ages before sattelite era. Surely You were not arround then.
You put an axe or a magnet bar near the compass and have it spoofed big time.
So do not think even one split second that spoofing is the invention of nintendo generation . It’s been around for as long as magnetic compass has been in use. The purpose : too fool the navigator so he deviates from intended route/course to perish or to be highjacked.
re DP guys/experts , talk to them and make them busy with your deliberations as I do not know shit about DP fitted ships and their operations.
Finally as I said before if i am in doubt regarding spoofing , I do what I have said already : i ask my nautical dick for advise.
One more thing. I see You have cojones and audacity to confront here the seasoned pilots with 35+ years of experience with your sail boat manoeuvring wisdom, observations and deliberations.
You reallly are an exceptional dude here as I have enough selfcriticism and humility to ACCEPT their freight train of wisdom and experience with awe and admiration, treating their verdicts and opinions as final.
Regret to observe , You still need to learn that useful skill.
Cheers
I agree, that’s the crux of the issue. If the GPS gets spoofed the ECDIS has to be switched to DR, the ship’s true position has to be determined and entered manually and then the ship navigated in a way unfamiliar to most deck officers.
Perhaps most ships could deal with that successfully but even if 99% of ships can cope that still could be a serious issue.
thats the key, how to know so when to go DR, hopefully it gets noticed in time.
The spoofing has to be recognized in a timely manner and the bridge team is going to have to deal with a sudden and unexpected increase in workload.
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I really don’t have the time to parse that word salad. Maybe run it through a couple AIs and translate it back and forth a few times, might get better 
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Yours is the standard shot of a gallctically stupid ignorants.
what are the triggers, ais targets move away from the radar targets?
I wondered if companies are writing procedures for this?
Good question.
-
What would happen to AIS targets versus radar targets in the case of wholesale GPS spoofing ( Local area spoofing)?
-
same question in the case of targeted/ dedicated /single ship GPS spoofing.?
Tip: go to AIS ops and system description/manuals to figure that out.
Turn the ais disply off
Spoofing of the GPS would in most cases cause an own ship ARPA XTE (Cross Track Error) alarm but a difference between the spoofed AIS position and actual position of other ships would not.
Yours noted with THX.
However pls explain what will be the triggers with AIS screen/targets off? Any suggestions are most welcome.
However if your " turn the ais display off" was your a craftily veiled proposition for me to ef off , then I have no problem clomplying with your polite request.
Cheers.
Your sailing along happily and then somebody starts spoofing your gps.
Hence if you have ais showing on the radar/ecdis the targets will come apart as the radar keeps telling the truth and the ais is now wrong.
Plus radar overlay on ecdis will look wrong as your position is now wrong ( assuming the radar can see a object you can get a fix on.)
That is interesting.
Understand this is the answer to my both questions 1& 2.
I am always willing to lean something from people smarter then me ( young and old) and the more wrong I am the more I can learn from those who are right.
Therefore I will not say You are wrong but rather say I have a different opinion and different answer to my previously posted questions.
- in case of whole sale GPS spoofing( local area spofing) all ships including mine will be affected.
Their GPS positions will be wrong including mine. Acc to AIS manuals and theory of operations AIS unit is a transmitter and receiver working within the so called VHF/( some say UHF) range ( range is meant to be distance/horizon) .
Hence all the spoofed - other ships positions will be transmited to my ship and received by my AIS unit .Consequently my AIS unit will relay this data on my Radar with "radar " targets . Comparing the picture on my radar prior spoofing and after spoofing i will see the AIS targets of other ships drift away and/or dissapear.
Your original question was clear and it was about radar not ECDIS. Hence forget about ECDIS as the acronym means what it means .It is a chart and an inelligent one.
If You select to impose/overlay on your chart the radar picture and AIS data then it is your problem not mine. I treat such a clutter as a nuisance as I was trained and used to filter data for proper analyses and not to coalesce into single mass of data which I consider as a noise to be filtered.
It is your choice and may be you feel comfortable with this but I am not.
Trust i have explained my point here.
- single ship = my ship dedicated /targeted spoofing.
Basis what i have said in item 1) all surronding ships are not spoffed and they send via their AIS transmitters their actual GPS position to my AIS receiver what consequently ends on my radar screen with their radar targets . As You have wisely observed and according to radar theory and manuals the picture on my radar does not depend on position what seems to be true as untill 1990 i was using radars without the position input.
Hence my spoofed position data can not affect my radar targets picture .In conclusion the AIS targets will remain in the same positions after spoofing as before spoofing.
I do not honestly know what should happen on ECDIS screen as I have never experimented with imosing all clutter on the ECDIS due to reasons explained above.
On all ships I had enough screens to have radars working as radars with or w/o AIS overlay and en ECDIS( my chart) without any additional BS that would rather confuse me then help to asses the situation.
Glad to see your rebuttal and or debbunking of what I have just written.
It is never too late to learn . Unfortunately I am not on the ship now fitted with IBS and all the toys so I could experiment .
Sorry I have forgotten to add another tip in my previous post regarding theory/manuals of radar operation.
Cheers
I dont sail commercially any more so my interest was more in what have the companies done for SOP to catch spoofing and then deal with it?
I got very little time with ecdis as was on offshore vessels and drilling, less the classroom.
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Error handling is a fundamental principle in systems that process sensor data. Apparently this principle was not applied when ECDIS was designed.
Thank You.
On the issue of the additional VOLUMES in company SMS i will revert with your permission but later as this spoofing issue got me red hot and I am now furiously digging into my libraries and notes .
Unfortunately too, in 2024 i have decided to leave the circus totaly exhausted not by storms, huricanes and tight shedules, shallow waters , stowage issues , security paranoia and other relevant to ship ops items but by the office people, who without proper licence insisted on commanding ships remotely without any responsibility whatsoever for their actions/instructions/orders.
For my taste it had become too dangerous to serve as a stooge.
Cheers
Error handling works if you have 3 sources of competing data but based on different principles so you dont have common failure modes…( from the world of DP)
So perhaps shipping should use:
GPS’s
Loran
Racons
??
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Don’t need additional sources except DR Just have to recognize the ship isn’t going to jump 10 miles in an instant.
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