[B]North Atlantic[/B]
1939.10.01 Suzon: Belgium cargo torpedoed/sunk*[B]how many? Crew size?[/B] rescue by Royal Navy
1939.10.03 Diamantis: Greece cargo torpedoed/sunk all 28 crew rescue by Kreigsmarine
1939.10.04 Glen Farg: UK coaster torpedoed/sunk 1/17died rescue by Royal Navy
1939.10.05 Stonegate: UK cargo shelled/sunk [B]how many? Crew size? Who helped?[/B]
1939.10.05 Marwarri: UK cargo mined/damaged[B]how many? Crew size? Who helped?[/B]
1939.10.06 Lochgoil: UK*cargo mined/damaged [B]how many? Crew size? Who helped?[/B]
1939.10.07 Binnendjik: Netherlands: cargo mined/damaged all 41 saved by Royal Lifeboat
[B]North Sea[/B]
1939.10.02 Baltic: Finland schooner mined/sunk*[B]how many? Crew size? Who helped?[/B]
[B]South Atlantic[/B]
1939.10.05 Newton Beech: UK cargo captured/scuttled [B]how many? Crew size? Who helped?[/B]
1939.10.07 Ashlea: UK *cargo captured/scuttled [B]how many? Crew size? Who helped?[/B]
[B]South China Sea[/B]
1939.10.03 Høegh Transporter: Norway mined/sunk 1 *died [B]Crew size? Who helped?[/B]
[B]North Atlantic[/B]
1939.10.08 Vistula: Sweden cargo torpedoed/sunk 9/18died[B]who helped?[/B]
1939.10.12 Aris: Greece cargo shelled/sunk 2/29died rescue by Sicilean (Netherlands)
1939.10.12 Emile Migue: France tanker torpedoed/damaged 2 died[B]crew size?[/B] rescue by Black Hawk (USA)
1939.10.13 Heronspool: UK cargo torpedoed/sunk all crew*[B]how many?[/B] rescued by President Harding (USA)
1939.10.13 Luisiane: France cargo torpedoed/sunk 1 died [B]how many crew?[/B] rescued by Royal Navy
1939.10.14 Bretagne: France cargotorpedoed/sunk 7 died [B]how many crew?[/B] rescued by Royal Navy
1939.10.14 Lochavon: UKcargo torpedoed/sunk 7 died [B]how many crew?[/B] rescued by Royal Navy
1939.10.14 Lorentz W. Hansen: Norway torpedoed/damaged 3/21 died*[B]Who rescued?[/B]
1939.10.14 Sneaton: UK cargo torpedoed/sunk 1 died [B]how many crew?[/B] rescued by Alexandre Andre (Belgium)
[B]North Sea[/B]
1939.10.13 Gressholm: Norway mined/sunk 3/11 crew died rescue by Emmi (Finland)
[B]South Atlantic[/B]
1939.10.10 Huntsman: UK cargo captured/scuttled*[B]any died? Crew size? Who helped?[/B]
Updated - - -
October 15-21, 1939
[B]North Atlantic[/B]
1939.10.15 Vermont: France cargo torpedoed/sunk 2/45 dead rescue by Royal Navy
1939.10.16 Halle: Germany cargo intercepted/scuttled [B]Dead? Crew size? Who helped?[/B]
1939.10.17 City of Mandalay: UK cargo torpedoed/sunk 2/80 dead rescue by Independence Hall (USA), Skudd IV (Norway)
1939.10.17 Clan Chrisholm: UK cargo torpedoed/sunk 4/78 dead rescue by Independence Hall (USA)
1939.10.17 Yorkshire: UK passenger torpedoed/sunk 58/281 dead rescue by Independence Hall (USA)
1939.10.18 Gozenheim: Germany cargo intercepted/scuttled [B]Dead? Crew size? Who helped?[/B]
[B]North Sea[/B]1939.10.20 Gustav Adolf: Sweden cargo torpedoed/sunk [B]Dead? Crew size?[/B] rescue by Biscaya (Norway)
1939.10.20 Sea Venture: UK cargo torpedoed/sunk 25/25 crew rescued by Royal Lifeboats
1939.10.21 Capitaine Edmund Laboirie: France cargo mined/sunk [B]Dead? Crew size? [/B] rescue by Royal Lifeboats
1939.10.21 Deodata: Norway cargo mined/sunk [B]Crew size?[/B] all rescued by Royal Lifeboat
1939.10.21 Orsa: UK cargo mined/sunk 11/15 dead rescue by Royal Lifeboat
1939.10.21 Poseidon: Germany captured/scuttled [B]Dead? Crew size? Who helped?[/B]
[B]North Atlantic[/B]
1939.10.24 Menin Ridge: UK cargo torpedoed and sunk 20/25 died rescue by Crown City (USA)
1939.10.24 Ledbury: UK cargo shelled/sunk 31/31 rescue by Crown City (USA)
1939.10.24 Tafna: UK cargo torpedoed/sunk 2/33 died rescue by Royal Navy
1939.10.26 BrontĂŠ: UK cargo torpedoed/damaged/scuttled*[B]Dead? Crew? Who helped?[/B]
1939.10.28 St. Nidan: UKtrawler shelled/sunk [B] how many crew?[/B] all crew rescue by Lynx II (UK)
1939.10.28 Lynx II: UK trawler shelled/sunk[B] how many crew?[/B] all crew and Nidan survivors rescue by Lady Hogarth (UK)
1939.10.29 Malabar: UK cargo torpedoed/sunk 5/75 died rescue by Royal Navy
1939.10.29 Thrasyvoulos: Greece torpedoed/sunk 22/28 died rescue by Havmøy (Norway)
1939.10.31 BaoulĂŠ: France shelled/sunk 13/43 died*[B] who helped?[/B]
[B]South Atlantic[/B]
1939.10.22 Trevanion: UK cargo shelled/sunk*[B]Dead? Crew? Who helped?[/B]
[B]North Sea[/B]
1939.10.22 Whitemantle: UK cargo mined/sunk 14 dead *[B]Crew? Who helped?[/B]
1939.10.23 Albania: Sweden cargo mined/sunk 2 died *[B]Crew?[/B] rescue by Channel Fisher (UK)
1939.10.24 Konstantinos Hadjipuratas: Greece cargo mined/sunk 4/31 died rescue by Royal Lifeboats
1939.10.29 Varangmalm: Norway cargo mined/sunk 1 died [B] how many crew?[/B] rescue by Conida (UK)
1939.10.30 Cairnmona: UK cargo torpedoed/sunk 3/44 died rescue by Royal Navy
1939.10.39 Juno: Finland cargo mined/sunk 6/6 died
[B]Gulf of Mexico[/B]
1939.10.23 Emmy Freidrich: Germany tanker intercepted/scuttled*[B]Dead? Crew? Who helped?[/B]
Monthly Totals
September 1939: 303/2744 = 11% died
October 1939: 174/999 = 17% died
Total Average: 477/3743 = 13% died
Rescues Total: 2582 people
Whoâs winning the race to save lives?
USA: 807 = 31%
Royal Navy: 444 = 17%
Norway: 285 = 11%
4.*Netherlands: 213 = 8%
Sweden: 190 = 7%
UK: 182 = 7%
Royal Lifeboats: 172 = 7%
Kreigsmarine: 71 = 3%
9.*Greece: 57 = 2%
Belgium: 44 = 2%
Italy: 41 = 2%
Finland: 37= 1%
Portugal: 21 = 1%
Denmark: 11 = 0.4%
Estonia: 7 = 0.3%
Is anyone else surprised by these numbers? After two months of war, lots of people or are being saved, most of them by the as-yet neutral Americans, and the Nazis are saving more than youâd think considering that theyâve cause nearly all the deaths so far.
Iâll recalculate these if anyone is able to fill in any of the gaps in the data.
[B]North Atlantic[/B]
1939.11.12 Arne Kjøde: Norway tanker torpedoed/scuttled 5/39 died rescue by Royal Navy
1939.11.12 Cresswell: UK trawler torpedoed/sank 6/13 died rescue by Kreigsmarine*
1939.11.13 Parana: Germany intercepted/scuttled*[B]crew?[/B] all rescue by Royal Navy
[B]North Sea[/B]
1939.11.03 Canada: Denmark cargo mined/sunk 64/64 rescue by Ringhorn (Norway)
1939.11.04 Nicolaos M. Embiricos: Greek cargo mined/sunk 1 died [B]crew?[/B] rescue by North Goodwin Lightship (UK) ,[B]name?[/B] (Netherlands)
1939.11.04 Sig: Norway cargo mined/sunk 3/19 died rescue by Ellen M (UK)
1939.11.09 Carmarthan Coast: UK cargo mined/sunk 2/17died rescue by Royal Lifeboats
1939.11.12 Fireglow: UK cargo struck wreck of Canada (Denmark) /sunk*[B]dead? crew? Who helped?[/B]
1939.11.12 Mecklenburg: Germany cargo intercepted/scuttled 63/63 rescue by Royal Navy
1939.11.13 Matra: UK cargo mined/damaged 16 dead[B]crew? Who helped?[/B]
1939.11.13 Ponzano: UK cargo mined/sunk*[B]dead? crew? [/B] rescue by*[B]name?[/B] (Norway),[B]name?[/B] (Norway)
1939.11.14 Dryburgh: UK struck wreck of Canada (Denmark)/sunk[B]dead? crew? Who helped?[/B]
1939.11.14 Maurice-Marguerite: Belgium cargo mined/sunk 3 died*[B]crew? Who helped?[/B]
[B]Mediterranean[/B]
1939.11.13 Loire: France cargo torpedoed/sunk*[B]dead? Crew? Who helped?[/B]
[B]South China Sea[/B]
1939.11.13 Sirdana: UK cargo mined/sunk 20 died [B]crew? Who helped?[/B]
The SS Canada of Denmark sank on November 3rd. The wreck was struck by and caused the sinking of 3 other ships on the 12th, 14th, and 15th of November. That wasnât needed, was it? When did the notice to mariners become a thing?
November 15-21, 1939
[B]North Atlantic[/B]
1939.11.16 Arlington Court: UK cargo torpedoed/sunk 5/34 died rescue by Algenib (Netherlands), Spinanger (Norway)
1939.11.16 Sliedrecht: Netherlands cargo torpedoed/sunk 26/31 died rescue by Merisia (UK)
1939.11.19 Darino: UK cargo torpedoed/sunk 16/27 dead rescue by Kreigsmarine*
1939.11.19 Pensilva: UK cargo torpedoed/sunk*[B]dead? crew?[/B] rescue by Royal Navy
1939.11.20 Bertha Fisser: Germany cargo intercepted/scuttled*[B] crew?[/B] all rescue by Royal Navy
1939.11.20 Delphine: UK trawler shelled/sunk*[B] crew? Who helped?[/B] all rescued
1939.11.20 Thomas Hankins: UK trawler shelled/sunk [B] crew? Who helped?[/B] all rescued
1939.11.20 Sea Sweeper: UK trawler shelled/sunk [B] crew?[/B] all rescue by Lois (UK)
1939.11.21 Les Barges II: France trawler shelled/sunk 15/15 rescue by Paz y Trabajo (Spain)
1939.11.21 Solby: UK trawler shelled/sunk 5/12 dead [B] Who helped?[/B]
1939.11.21 William Humphries: UK trawler shelled/sunk 13 dead[B] crew? Who helped?[/B]*
1939.11.21 Teneriffe: Germany cargo intercepted/scuttled 73/73 rescue by Royal Navy
[B]North Sea[/B]
1939.11.15 Georgios: Greece cargostruck wreck of Canada (Denmark) /sunk 23/23 rescue by Royal Lifeboats
1939.11.15 Woodtown: UK cargo mined/sunk 8 died[B] crew? Who helped?[/B]
1939.11.16 Resercho: UK trawler mined/sunk [B]dead? crew? Who helped?[/B]
1939.11.17 Kaunas: Lithuania cargo torpedoed/sunk 1/16 died [B]Who helped?[/B]
1939.11.18 Blackhill: UK cargo mined/sunk 1 dead [B] crew?[/B] rescue by Royal Navy
1939.11.18 Parkhill: UK coaster torpedoed/sunk 9 dead [B] crew? Who helped?[/B]
1939.11.18 Carica Milica: Yugoslavia cargo mined/sunk all rescued [B] crew? Who helped?[/B]
1939.11.18 Wigmore: UK trawler torpedoed/sunk 16/16 died
1939.11.18 Simon Bolivar: Netherlands passenger mined/sunk [B]84? 86? 120?[/B]/238 rescue by Royal Navy, Fairplay II (UK)
1939.11.19 B. O. Borjesson: Sweden cargo mined/sunk 6 died[B]crew?[/B] rescue by Frascati (UK), Royal Navy
1939.11.19 Bowling: UK cargo torpedoed/sunk 13/13 dead
1939.11.19 Grazia: Italy cargo mined/sunk 6/30dead rescue by Royal Navy
1939.11.19 Rhuys: France cargo mined/sunk 16/33 dead[B] Who helped?[/B]
1939.11.19 Stanbrook: UK cargo torpedoed/sunk 20/20 dead
1939.11.19 Torchbearer: UK cargo mined/sunk 4/12dead rescue by Royal Navy
1939.11.19 Willowpool: UK cargo mined/sunk*[B]dead? crew? Who helped?[/B]
1939.11.21 Terukuni Maru: Japan passenger mined/sunk 206/206 saved + 1 dog +1 falcon rescue by [B]name?[/B] (UK)
*[B]Baltic Sea[/B]
1939.11.15 Nida: Lithuania cargo mined/sunk [B]dead? crew? Who helped?[/B]
1939.11.15 Panevezys: Lithuania cargo mined/sunk [B]dead? crew? Who helped?[/B]
[B]Indian Ocean[/B]
1939.11.15 Africa Shell: UK cargo shelled/sunk*[B]dead? Crew size? Who helped?[/B]
[QUOTE=Emrobu;190125]I love him. I saw some of the stuff from that tug at the Maritime Museum in Halifax. I will grab it and the sequel from the library next time.[/QUOTE]
Here is a paper: Casualty Rates for Ships Abandoned at Sea. Itâs from the UK and covers merchant ships lost during peacetime but appendix C covers some wartime sinkings.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;190141]Here is a paper: Casualty Rates for Ships Abandoned at Sea. Itâs from the UK and covers merchant ships lost during peacetime but appendix C covers some wartime sinkings.[/QUOTE]
Good find. It references a book that I didnt know about and I need to find, too.
Just a spelling help:
You started with âKriegsmarineâ and you proceeded with âKreigsmarineâ.
The Naziâs navy was the âKriegsmarineâ >>>>> Krieg = War
Then, until the reunification in 1990, West Germany had a âBundesmarineâ (federal navy) and East Germany a âVolksmarineâ (peopleâs navy).
Now, officially, they call it just âMarineâ.
I included the Finnish boats that were lost on November 30 in Finlandâs arctic port. I donât know if they were war casualties or not, but since I donât know what happened to them, and that was the exact day that the USSR invaded Finland (first day of the Winter War), and they sunk a Finnish coast guard vessel in the Baltic that day, I think they might be war casualties. *They might be the first in the Arctic.
November 22-30, 1939
[B]North Atlantic[/B]
1939.11.22 Adolf Woermann: Germany cargo scuttled all*[B]crew?[/B] rescue by Royal Navy
1939.11.22 Antiochia: Germany cargo intercepted/scuttled all [B]crew?[/B] rescue by Royal Navy
1939.11.22 Arijon: France cargo torpedoed/sunk [B]dead? crew? Who helped?[/B]
1939.11.23 Borkum: UK cargo shelled/sunk 4 dead (Germans)[B] crew?[/B] rescue by Royal Navy. Borkum was a captured German merchant ship.
1939.11.23 Hookwood: UK cargo mined/sunk 2/17 dead rescue by Royal
1939.11.24 Mangalore: UK cargo mined/sunk [B]dead? crew? Who helped?[/B]
1939.11.25 Royston Grange: UKcargo torpedoed/sunk [B]crew?[/B] all rescue by Romilly (UK)
1939.11.25 Uskmouth: UK cargo torpedoed/shelled/sunk 2/25 dead rescue by French Navy, Juventis (Italy)
1939.11.27 Gustaf E. Reuter: Sweden torpedoed/damaged 1/34 dead rescue by Royal Lifeboats and Royal Navy
[B]North Sea[/B]
1939.11.22 Elena R.: Greece cargo mined/sunk 35/35 dead
1939.11.22 Geraldus: UK cargo mined/sunk**[B]dead? crew?[/B] rescue by Royal Navy
1939.11.22 Lowland: UK cargo mined/sunk 9/12dead rescue by Royal Navy
1939.11.26 Pilsudski: Poland passenger mined/sunk 10/89 dead rescue by Royal Navy
1939.11.27 Spaarndam: Netherlands cargo mined/sunk 7 dead[B]crew? who helped?[/B]
1939.11.28 Rubislaw: UK cargo mined/sunk 13 dead [B]crew?[/B] rescue by Royal Navy
1939.11.29 Ionian: UK cargo mined/sunk all 37 crew rescue by Royal Navy
1939.11.30 Realf: Norway cargo mined/sunk 1/43 dead rescue by Santa Gata (Italy)
1939.11.30 Sheaf Crest: UK cargo mined/sunk 1/30 dead rescue by Polish Navy,*[B]name? Flag?[/B]
[B]Arctic Ocean[/B]
1939.11.30 Jaameri: Finland*[B]Type? What happened? Dead? Crew? Who helped?[/B]
1939.11.30 Syvri: Finland [B]Type? What happened? Dead? Crew? Who helped?[/B]
Posted on September 9, 2016 by Rick Spilman
hmstarpon
British T Class Submarine
The wreck of HMS Tarpon, a British submarine sunk by a German Q-ship during World War II, was discovered last March in the North Sea, near Thyborøn, Denmark. The wreck was discovered in 40 meters of water by a Danish commercial diver and museum owner, Gert Normann Andersen, and Innes McCartney, a British marine archaeologist. Recently, DR3, a Danish television company broadcast a two hour long program featuring live images of the wreck.
On April 10, 1940, the Royal Navy submarine HMS Tarpon attacked what appeared to be a German merchant ship. According to German naval records, the submarine fired two torpedoes, which missed. The German ship was Q-ship Schiff 40/SchĂźrbek, an armed vessel disguised as a merchantman. The Q ship used on board sonar and attacked HMS Tarpon with multiple salvos of depth charges, which sank the submarine. Germany employed at least 13 Q-ships, while great Britain deployed 9.
HMS Tarpon was a T-class submarine, launched in October 1939. She was 275Ⲡlong, with a beam of 26â6âł. Based on the condition of the wreck the divers were able to confirm the German naval reports. Torpedoes had been fired from two of the four external tubes and they saw severe damage behind the shipâs conning tower consistent with a depth charge attack.
The divers have no plans to return to the wreckage, and Dr Innes wrote on Facebook: âIt is the grave of 59 submariners and deserves to remain unspoiled. The position will not be divulged.â
Thatâs fairly shocking. I havenât got to 1940.04 yet, but so far the Royal Navy doesnât seem to have fired upon civilian-seeming vessels. They have a very high (as of November the highest) number of merchant mariners saved, due in part to their careful saving of German merchantmen, in part to the tendency of German merchantment to scuttle themselves in an organized way, in part to the weirdly (to my mind) large crews that the German merchant fleet seems to carry, and in part to being quite heroical.
So I wonder, was the Tarpon hip to the ruse, or did something about the British rules of war change?
Two of the Norwegian rescue boats that were active in this first week of December, have a more tragic role to play later in the war. They are Irma and Rudolf, (not to be confused with the Swedish Rudolf also mentioned this week)
Thereâs a good telling of the story of Tajadoen and Louis Sheid.
December 1-7, 1939
[B]North Atlantic[/B]
1939.12.05 Navasota: UK cargo torpedoed/sank 37/82 died rescue by Royal Navy, Clan Farquhar (UK)
1939.12.06 Britta: Norway cargo torpedoed/sunk 6/31*died rescue by Memlinc (Belgium)
1939.12.07 Thomas Walton: UK cargo torpedoed/sunk 13/44 died rescue by Irma (Norway, Hurtegruten), Sebu (Germany)
1939.12.07 Tajadoen: Netherlands cargo torpedoed/sunk 6/68 died rescue by Louis Sheid (Belgium)
1939.12.07 Louis Sheid: Belgium cargo grounded while escaping uboat 46/46 crew +62 Tajadoen survivors rescue by Royal Lifeboats
[B]North Sea[/B]
1939.12.01 Arcturas: Norway cargo torpedoed/sunk 9/24 died rescue by Eva (Norway), Ivar (Denmark)
1939.12.01 Dalryan: UK cargo mined/sunk*[B]dead? Crew? Who helped?[/B]
1939.12.01 Floride: France cargo mined/sunk [B]dead? Crew? Who helped?[/B]
1939.12.01 Mercator: Finland cargo mined/sunk 1/32 dead rescue by Bread Winner (UK), Royal Lifeboats, one of Mercatorâs own lifeboats
1939.12.02 San Calisto: UK tanker mined/sunk 6/42 crew died rescue by*[B]whom?[/B]
1939.12.02 Ove Toft: Denmark cargo torpedoed/sunk 6/21 crew died rescue by*[B]whom?[/B]
1939.12.02 Eskadine: UK cargo torpedoed/damaged 29/29 crew rescue by Hilde (Norway)
1939.12.03 Rudolf: Sweden cargo torpedoed/shelled/sunk 9/23 crew died rescue by *Cardew (UK), GunlĂśg (Sweden)
1939.12.04 GimlĂŠ: Norway cargo torpedoed/sunk 3/19 crew died rescue by Rudolf (Norway)
1939.12.04 Horsted: UK cargo mined/sunk 5 died [B]crew?[/B] rescue by Royal Navy
1939.12.04 Primula: Norway *cargo mined/sunk 8/15 died rescue by Wm. Th. Malling (Denmark)
1939.12.06 Agu: Estonia cargo torpedoed/sunk 18 died [B]crew? Who helped?[/B]
1939.12.06 Føina: Norway cargo torpedoed/sunk 18/18 died
1939.12.06 Paralos: UK cargo mined/sunk 3/25 dead rescue by Roek (UK)
1939.12.06 Vinga: Sweden cargo torpedoed/sunk 22/22 rescue by Transporter (Denmark)
1939.12.07 Eskadebe: UK cargo mined/damaged [B]dead? crew? Who helped?[/B]
1939.12.07 Scotia: Denmark cargo torpedoed/sunk 19/21 died rescue by Hafnia (Denmark)
[B]South Atlantic[/B]
1939.12.02 Doric Star: UK cargo shelled/sunk [B]dead? Crew? Who helped?[/B]
1939.12.02 Watussi: Germany passenger scuttled all 196 rescue by Royal Navy
1939.12.03 Tairoa: UK cargo shelled/sunk [B]dead? Crew? Who helped?[/B]
1939.12.06 Ussukuma: Germany passenger scuttled 120/120 rescue by Royal Navy
1939.12.07 Streonshalh: UK cargo shelled/sunk [B]dead? crew size? Who helped?[/B]
[QUOTE=Emrobu;190100]Monthly Totals
September 1939: 303/2744 = 11% died
October 1939: 174/999 = 17% died
Total Average: 477/3743 = 13% died
Rescues Total: 2582 people
Whoâs winning the race to save lives?
USA: 807 = 31%
Royal Navy: 444 = 17%
Norway: 285 = 11%
4.*Netherlands: 213 = 8%
Sweden: 190 = 7%
UK: 182 = 7%
Royal Lifeboats: 172 = 7%
Kreigsmarine: 71 = 3%
9.*Greece: 57 = 2%
Belgium: 44 = 2%
Italy: 41 = 2%
Finland: 37= 1%
Portugal: 21 = 1%
Denmark: 11 = 0.4%
Estonia: 7 = 0.3%
Is anyone else surprised by these numbers? After two months of war, lots of people or are being saved, most of them by the as-yet neutral Americans, and the Nazis are saving more than youâd think considering that theyâve cause nearly all the deaths so far.
Iâll recalculate these if anyone is able to fill in any of the gaps in the data.[/QUOTE]
Both Norway (#3) and Sweden (#5) on the list was neutral nations at that time, yet they feature high on the list of both Rescue and vessels sunk.
I am surprised at the US rescues, since they donât feature much in the list before or after this date.
[QUOTE=ombugge;190198]Refr. Post #11 re: Claus Boge. Found this article about the Communist sabotour group that carried out the bombing: https://www.nrk.no/dokumentar/sabotoren-pa-sinsen-1.10964866
(In Norwegian, but readable when translated by G.T.)[/QUOTE]
That might end up dovetailing with another line that Iâm looking at: the soviet intrigues around getting involved with the Baltic countries. Twice that I have found now, they have used false flag attacks on themselves to make an excuse to attack their neighbors, and one of those involved destroying a soviet merchant ship. Do you think that these Wollweber people might have had a hand to play in what happened to the Irma? Because its not completely clear to me that it was an accident.