# WorkBoat: Jones Act debate continues after 100 years **URL:** \ **Category:** Professional Mariner Forum\ **Created:** [November 13, 2019, 12:22am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/workboat-jones-act-debate-continues-after-100-years/53322 "2019-11-13T00:22:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tugsailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a9adbd/32.png) [@tugsailor](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/tugsailor)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 8:57pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/workboat-jones-act-debate-continues-after-100-years/53322/42 "2021-03-11T20:57:22Z")
I don’t see why we cannot build as cheaply Western European countries, or Japan. Modern yards with more robotic welding should help to close the gap. How many shipyards do we need? How many ships do they need to build per year? What would it take to have a competitive ship building industrial base? I don’t know, but someone could figure that out. It long past time that we face the fact that China is a dangerous enemy hell bent on World domination. We should not allow Chinese owned, designed, built, financed, or insured ships to enter US waters. That would reduce Chinese cost advantages. Ships built in countries with no significant enforced labor or environmental standards, should be subject to a tax if they want to enter US waters. Chinese shipyards are essentially government owned and run on government money. Most countries subsidize their shipyards with national healthcare and numerous other subsidies. Yes, it would take billions of dollars government equity investment, loans, and grants to essentially build a néw shipbuilding industrial base. Is it worth it? I think so, because I do not see how the US can be a prosperous country capable of defending itself without a productive reasonably competitive shipbuilding industrial base at appropriate scale. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Phoenix](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/capt_phoenix/32/281_2.png) [@Capt\_Phoenix](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Capt_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 9:55pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/workboat-jones-act-debate-continues-after-100-years/53322/43 "2021-03-11T21:55:29Z")
> [@tugsailor](#): > > We should not allow Chinese owned, designed, built, financed, or insured ships to enter US waters. And you think China would just sit there and take that? There’s more considerations than just what would superficially benefit the USA. ---
**Author:** ![SeaEagle](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/seaeagle/32/17788_2.png) [@SeaEagle](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/SeaEagle)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 9:58pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/workboat-jones-act-debate-continues-after-100-years/53322/44 "2021-03-11T21:58:27Z")
Realisticaly, that won’t happen Tugsailor. ---
**Author:** ![Jemplayer](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/jemplayer/32/523_2.png) [@Jemplayer](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Jemplayer)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 10:37pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/workboat-jones-act-debate-continues-after-100-years/53322/45 "2021-03-11T22:37:28Z")
Comparing ship building to building airplanes is a poor analogy. There are only two airline manufactures that the major airlines look to when purchasing airplanes. Boeing and Airbus. The summed up reasons being airplanes are hard to build, need highly skilled employees, and have a high barrier of entry. Vessels on the other hand can realistically be built by any joker with a welder and steel and have a low level of entry. As seen by the number of vessels coming out of India and China. Three legs support the US shipping industry, take away one of those legs and the rest will soon follow. They want to remove building requirements. They are telling you it will create more jobs. When that dosent work they will want to remove cabotage laws that wont work either. Finely manning will be the blame and we are all with out jobs. How will having cheaper vessels make more work? Short sea shipping is not practical in a world where we want things the next day. There is only so much grain and coal is dying, explain to me how cheaper tugs will make more work. Offshore! We have too many vessels as it is. ---
**Author:** ![cpgrabow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@cpgrabow](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/cpgrabow)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2021, 2:53am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/workboat-jones-act-debate-continues-after-100-years/53322/46 "2021-03-12T02:53:14Z")
> [@tugsailor](#): > > We should not allow Chinese owned, designed, built, financed, or insured ships to enter US waters. That would reduce Chinese cost advantages. So Chinese-built US-flagged ships – of which there are several in the foreign trading fleet – should be banned from US waters? ---
**Author:** ![cpgrabow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@cpgrabow](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/cpgrabow)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2021, 3:11am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/workboat-jones-act-debate-continues-after-100-years/53322/47 "2021-03-12T03:11:31Z")
Bad comparison. Yes, “vessels” aren’t difficult to build. But neither are aircraft. Specialized commercial jetliners used by major airlines – that’s a different story. But it’s the same for specialized vessels like wind turbine installation vessels or LNG carriers. Not just any joker with a welder and steel can build those. As for US-build, it in no way follows that removing that requirement will then lead to the removal of other requirements. Airlines aren’t subject to U.S.-built, but do we hear _any_ clamoring for an end to airline cabotage? I suspect that if US-built went away that there would be _less_ talk about scrapping the Jones Act and its other requirements as the law would be perceived as less onerous. And yes, short sea shipping is practical. It happens in Europe. Why not here? No, highways wouldn’t suddenly be turned into ghost towns and trucking coming to a screeching halt, but the status quo can be improved upon. US-built is a horrendous bargain. Output of 2-3 oceangoing ships per year (zero scheduled for delivery next year) in exchange for a diminished fleet of vessels that have to last 40+ years owing to fearsome replacement costs. It’s madness. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Phoenix](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/capt_phoenix/32/281_2.png) [@Capt\_Phoenix](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Capt_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2021, 3:46am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/workboat-jones-act-debate-continues-after-100-years/53322/48 "2021-03-12T03:46:56Z")
> [@cpgrabow](#): > > short sea shipping is practical. If that were true for the US it would already exist here. Allowing Chinese built ships wouldn’t magically make short sea shipping work. > [@cpgrabow](#): > > Why not here? Go to one of the sort sea shipping threads (or jones act threads). It’s been discussed ad nauseum. ---
**Author:** ![yacht\_sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ed655f/32.png) [@yacht\_sailor](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/yacht_sailor)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 2:04am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/workboat-jones-act-debate-continues-after-100-years/53322/49 "2021-03-15T02:04:26Z")
> [@cpgrabow](#): > > but do we hear _any_ clamoring for an end to airline cabotage? YES! I haven’t heard it _lately_, but it has happened. The idea was to use foreign registered aircraft with foreign crews earning a lot less than USA standard wages. ---
**Author:** ![cpgrabow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@cpgrabow](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/cpgrabow)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 2:12am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/workboat-jones-act-debate-continues-after-100-years/53322/50 "2021-03-15T02:12:35Z")
> [@Capt\_Phoenix](#): > > If that were true for the US it would already exist here. Allowing Chinese built ships wouldn’t magically make short sea shipping work. Why would it already exist here given a policy regime so unfriendly to its existence? Allowing far cheaper foreign-builds would absolutely have an impact on the viability of SSS, as numerous studies have concluded. We can debate the magnitude of the impact, but it wouldn’t be zero. ---
**Author:** ![cpgrabow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@cpgrabow](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/cpgrabow)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 2:16am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/workboat-jones-act-debate-continues-after-100-years/53322/51 "2021-03-15T02:16:50Z")
> [@yacht\_sailor](#): > > I haven’t heard it _lately_ , but it has happened. The idea was to use foreign registered aircraft with foreign crews earning a lot less than USA standard wages. Has a bill ever been introduced? A hearing held? Surely the standard has to be higher than some person somewhere calling for this at some point in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Phoenix](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/capt_phoenix/32/281_2.png) [@Capt\_Phoenix](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Capt_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 2:37am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/workboat-jones-act-debate-continues-after-100-years/53322/52 "2021-03-15T02:37:38Z")
> [@cpgrabow](#): > > Why would it already exist here If it were economically viable, it would. Even container barge runs have failed, because there isn’t the economic demand for it. Without customers it doesn’t matter if you have a more affordable ship. BTW, the difference in cost of a US vessel compared to a foreign vessel is negligible on a per-container-moved basis. > [@cpgrabow](#): > > Allowing far cheaper foreign-builds would absolutely have an impact on the viability of SSS So minimal it isn’t a factor. ---
**Author:** ![Steamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Steamer](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Steamer)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 1:55pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/workboat-jones-act-debate-continues-after-100-years/53322/53 "2021-03-15T13:55:26Z")
> [@Jemplayer](#): > > Comparing ship building to building airplanes is a poor analogy. There are only two airline manufactures that the major airlines look to when purchasing airplanes. Boeing and Airbus. The summed up reasons being airplanes are hard to build, need highly skilled employees, and have a high barrier of entry. Most of that barrier is purely financial. China builds aircraft, they are building a competitor for the 737 and have a market that will use hundreds if not thousands of them.Like China, India has a very competent aerospace industry that supplies Boeing and Airbus. All it takes is government financial support to build the infrastructure and purchase machinery. The only airline problem with airliner construction seems to be the low cost and minimally skilled labor filling the Boeing assembly lines in Charleston. ---
**Author:** ![yacht\_sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ed655f/32.png) [@yacht\_sailor](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/yacht_sailor)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 3:14pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/workboat-jones-act-debate-continues-after-100-years/53322/54 "2021-03-15T15:14:52Z")
The usual suspects had a bunch of articles like this published in various places: > **[Airline Competition Is Dying—Here’s How to Bring It Back](https://slate.com/technology/2013/08/cabotage-will-revive-airline-competition-foreign-airlines-should-be-able-to-fly-in-the-united-states.html)** > > The era of cheap airfares is on the wane. Regulatory changes in the late 1970s and early 1980s opened the industry up to competition that was a boon to... They never got as far as a hearing AFAIK. ---
**Author:** ![Steamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Steamer](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Steamer)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 6:20pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/workboat-jones-act-debate-continues-after-100-years/53322/55 "2021-03-15T18:20:24Z")
> [@yacht\_sailor](#): > > They never got as far as a hearing AFAIK. Do you wonder why? > **[Pakistan International Airlines grounds 150 pilots over "bogus" licenses...](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pakistan-international-airlines-grounds-150-pilots-bogus-licenses-deadly-crash-flight-8303-karachi/)** > > The move comes after a government report found pilots largely to blame for May 22 crash in Karachi that killed 98 people. Would you let Bumfukistan Airlines fly your kids to Wally World just to save a couple of bucks? ---
**Author:** ![SeaEagle](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/seaeagle/32/17788_2.png) [@SeaEagle](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/SeaEagle)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 7:04pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/workboat-jones-act-debate-continues-after-100-years/53322/56 "2021-03-15T19:04:59Z")
Thank you for a long awaited chuckle , Bumfuckistan is a worthy statement… Nailed it. Son and daughter in-law just went on a delayed honeymoon trip to Disney… Did not fly with Bumfuckistan Airlines, Was still concerned, but did alright. I haven’t flown since I retired in 2003. No need to. ---
**Author:** ![yacht\_sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ed655f/32.png) [@yacht\_sailor](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/yacht_sailor)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2021, 1:06am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/workboat-jones-act-debate-continues-after-100-years/53322/57 "2021-03-16T01:06:51Z")
I place I flew for in Hawaii got their certificate yanked when it was discovered to be foreign-owned on the down-low ☹ I have exactly the same issue with Bumfuckistan Airlines flying over my house as I do with their tugboat division hauling a barge full of gasoline past my house. ---
**Author:** ![Steamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Steamer](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Steamer)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2021, 12:55pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/workboat-jones-act-debate-continues-after-100-years/53322/58 "2021-03-16T12:55:46Z")
I would strongly support a maritime version of the International Aviation Safety Assessment (IASA) program. [https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/iasa/](https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/iasa/) Why do we allow FoC rustbuckets and owners who abandon crews to conduct a profitable business hauling cargo to and from our taxpayer supported ports? Think about this before you cast a vote for some slimy politician who is paid to throw you under a FoC lobbyist’s bus. [Previous page](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/workboat-jones-act-debate-continues-after-100-years/53322.md?page=2)