[QUOTE=ombugge;188979]Please explain, what makes no difference? No difference whether the Master and Officers on a ship / towing vessel hold relevant certificates?[/QUOTE]
STCW and other certificates are worth as much as the paper they’re printed on. Anyone can take a class from a 3rd world school, approved by a 3rd world government, it doesn’t mean shit for competence. Honestly, the same goes for classes from the best countries. They are all worthless.
[QUOTE=ombugge;188979]In this case, I would assume that a Warranty Surveyor had inspected the towed unit, the towing gear and the tug before signing a Certificate of Approval for the tow to commence. That inspection would have included the qualifications and experience of the Master and Officers of the Tug, the Tow route, the weather forecast for the first 24 hrs. and outlook for the next 48 hrs. thereafter.[/QUOTE]
A warranty surveyor approved the Aiviq to tow the Kulluk, that didn’t stop then from having incompetent officers towing with incorrect gear.
I have worked with many Croatian mariners and they are generally as good as any other nationality. Maritime work is not new to them. Sometimes low pay makes any nationality not really give a shit. The thing you have to remember about any European is that for the most part they are reserved and strait forward, but every once and a while you come across a real whack-job.
[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;188982]STCW and other certificates are worth as much as the paper they’re printed on. Anyone can take a class from a 3rd world school, approved by a 3rd world government, it doesn’t mean shit for competence. Honestly, the same goes for classes from the best countries. They are all worthless.
A warranty surveyor approved the Aiviq to tow the Kulluk, that didn’t stop then from having incompetent officers towing with incorrect gear.[/QUOTE]
I still have big problems trying to login.
I have not been too impressed with most “trip in tow” surveyors. A lot of them don’t know shit.
Clearly, the Gulf of Mexico surveyor for the AIVIQ/KULLUK tow was operating outside his element and beyond his competence. That’s putting it mildly.
I’m surprised we are worried about education when it comes to the merits of handling a towing vessel and the tow itself. Some of the best captains behind the sticks can barely read/write english… and no they are not Croatian. They are Lafourchian. Any why are we so quick to jump into playing the blame game? I’m sure everyone of us has had a mechanical failure that lead to an incident that we could do nothing to stop… or we had been bugging the office for months to approve the order for parts to fix whatever may have caused the failure.
[QUOTE=ombugge;188979]Please explain, what makes no difference? No difference whether the Master and Officers on a ship / towing vessel hold relevant certificates?[/QUOTE]
I have no opinion about where to point fingers in this incidence. I would like to point out that equating certification with qualification is a dangerous fallacy. Certification may help the underwriter sleep at night, but not all the bed-time stories are true.
[QUOTE=Emrobu;189003]I have no opinion about where to point fingers in this incidence. I would like to point out that equating certification with qualification is a dangerous fallacy. Certification may help the underwriter sleep at night, but not all the bed-time stories are true.[/QUOTE]
We don’t know anything about what happened, except that the rig ended up on the rocks. We have no facts to point the finger at anyone. Nor any reason to do so until we know a lot more.
Alp is a large professional Northern European towing company with very good equipment. They were doing a routine job in thier backyard. At this point all I can do is give them the benefit of the doubt. The nationality of the officers is irrelevant.
[QUOTE=tugsailor;189006]We don’t know anything about what happened, except that the ends up on the rocks. We have no facts to point the finger at anyone. Nor any reason to do so until we know a lot more.
Alp is a large professional Northern European towing company with very good equipment. They were doing a routine job in thier backyard. At this point all I can do is give them the benefit of the doubt. The nationality of the officers is irrelevant.[/QUOTE]
Exactly why I said nothing about this incident, the company, the job, or nationality. If you want to argue any of those points, pick another contributer.
[QUOTE=tugsailor;189006]We don’t know anything about what happened, except that the ends up on the rocks. We have no facts to point the finger at anyone. Nor any reason to do so until we know a lot more.
Alp is a large professional Northern European towing company with very good equipment. They were doing a routine job in thier backyard. At this point all I can do is give them the benefit of the doubt. The nationality of the officers is irrelevant.[/QUOTE]
HEAR, HEAR! Being half Croatian myself, I take umbrage with those who are pointing fingers at the officers for their nationality. Croatians, Poles, Ukrainians, etc… are all capable mariners who have knowledge and abilities no better or worse than Germans, Norwegians or even us Americans when it comes to seafaring. The same really goes for the overwhelming majority of seafarers of every nationality found on ships sailing around the planet. Considering that at a minimum 97% of ships around the globe do not have a single American aboard and that virtually every one of those ships sail in their service without any incident whatsoever shows that there is no single group that is somehow better than any other in doing the job.
obviously, in the case if the T/O WINNER, something was planned or done wrong or this grounding would not have happened however to say that there was somehow incompetence because the crew was not first world is plainly bigoted and prejudicial thinking.
[QUOTE=Emrobu;189003]I have no opinion about where to point fingers in this incidence. I would like to point out that equating certification with qualification is a dangerous fallacy. Certification may help the underwriter sleep at night, but not all the bed-time stories are true.[/QUOTE]
I did not say that a certificate guarantee skills and rational behaviour, nor does any amount of Degrees from whichever University anywhere in the world. (Trump University included)
What it does is ensuring MINIMUM qualifications for whatever position it entitle the holder to serve in.
It also enable Authorities, Owners, Underwrites and Charterers to ensure that the people manning the vessels meet that minimum standard.
I have worked with people of many different races and nationalities with low education but high skills. Likewise, with many individuals with VERY high educational level, but no actual knowledge or skills to suite their positions.
As I have pointed out here several times, I started out in the oil patch back in the “Cowboy days”, when there were many “world champions” trying to hide their incompetence by loud statement about their abilities. I don’t know how many “best boat handler in the world” I have met over the years. (You are free to guess on their origin)
I have also met those who knew a lot about their business, but did not talk much. Some could not even read and write. One I remember especially, who claimed that he learnt how to read and write after he was 20. He went on to become VP in one of the then biggest Drilling Contractors in the Offshore business at the time. (Now defunct)
[QUOTE=c.captain;189009]HEAR, HEAR! Being half Croatian myself, I take umbrage with those who are pointing fingers at the officers for their nationality. Croatians, Poles, Ukrainians, etc… are all capable mariners who have knowledge and abilities no better or worse than Germans, Norwegians or even us Americans when it comes to seafaring. The same really goes for the overwhelming majority of seafarers of every nationality found on ships sailing around the planet. Considering that at a minimum 97% of ships around the globe do not have a single American aboard and that virtually every one of those ships sail in their service without any incident whatsoever shows that there is no single group that is somehow better than any other in doing the job.
obviously, in the case if the T/O WINNER, something was planned or done wrong or this grounding would not have happened however to say that there was somehow incompetence because the crew was not first world is plainly bigoted and prejudicial thinking.[/QUOTE]
Isn’t that the truth. Most ships in the world is manned by people from the “3rd world”, yet they manage to sail around the globe with relatively few accident, incidents and near misses. There is no indication that having crew from “1st world” countries ensure less accident relative to the number of ships in service.
By the way, hasn’t Croatia joined the “1st world” now that they are a member of the EU?
Which countries belong to the “2nd world”?
Who decides the ranking of the various countries into “1st, 2nd & 3rd world” anyhow??
Since we are at it; who decides which countries belong in the “free world” and who appoints the “leader of the free world”? (Maybe Fraqrat?)
[QUOTE=ombugge;189019]I did not say that a certificate guarantee skills and rational behaviour, nor does any amount of Degrees from whichever University anywhere in the world. (Trump University included)
What it does is ensuring MINIMUM qualifications for whatever position it entitle the holder to serve in.
It also enable Authorities, Owners, Underwrites and Charterers to ensure that the people manning the vessels meet that minimum standard.
I have worked with people of many different races and nationalities with low education but high skills. Likewise, with many individuals with VERY high educational level, but no actual knowledge or skills to suite their positions.
As I have pointed out here several times, I started out in the oil patch back in the “Cowboy days”, when there were many “world champions” trying to hide their incompetence by loud statement about their abilities. I don’t know how many “best boat handler in the world” I have met over the years. (You are free to guess on their origin)
I have also met those who knew a lot about their business, but did not talk much. Some could not even read and write. One I remember especially, who claimed that he learnt how to read and write after he was 20. He went on to become VP in one of the then biggest Drilling Contractors in the Offshore business at the time. (Now defunct)[/QUOTE]
One of the major problems with hiring seafarers from poor countries is that many of them have a severe fear of loosing their jobs, their home countries have little welfare, and average jobs ashore pay next to no money compared to the relatively high salaries they get as seafarers.
No matter how well educated or experienced they are, a sever fear of loosing ones job can lead to the willingness to stupid and unsafe things to keep their superiors happy and preserver their job. This kind of attitude is bad enough at the best of times, but will only be exasperated given the increased scarcity of jobs due to down turn in oil and gas.
[QUOTE=tugsailor;188990]I still have big problems trying to login.
I have not been too impressed with most “trip in tow” surveyors. A lot of them don’t know shit.
Clearly, the Gulf of Mexico surveyor for the AIVIQ/KULLUK tow was operating outside his element and beyond his competence. That’s putting it mildly.[/QUOTE]
No GoM Surveyor is likely to have been involved in approving this tow from Norway to Malta.
I don’t know where you have encountered “trip in tow” (Warranty?) Surveyors, but I don’t think we should generalize based on your impression alone.
[QUOTE=seamanstan;189021]One of the major problems with hiring seafarers from poor countries is that many of them have a severe fear of loosing their jobs, their home countries have little welfare, and average jobs ashore pay next to no money compared to the relatively high salaries they get as seafarers.
No matter how well educated or experienced they are, a sever fear of loosing ones job can lead to the willingness to stupid and unsafe things to keep their superiors happy and preserver their job. This kind of attitude is bad enough at the best of times, but will only be exasperated given the increased scarcity of jobs due to down turn in oil and gas.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think fear of loosing their jobs are a main issue today. There is a shortage of STCW Certified, Masters, Officers and Engineers in the world. There is competition to hire and retain seagoing personnel with the right skills to serve on specialized vessels, like LNG/LPG Carriers, Chemical Carriers, Heavy Lift Vessels, Shuttle tankers and other sophisticated vessels.
Outside the domestic GoM fleet there is also shortage of experienced personnel to serve on Offshore Vessels, especially those requiring DP Licence, deep water A/H skills etc.
[QUOTE=tugsailor;189006]We don’t know anything about what happened, except that the rig ended up on the rocks. We have no facts to point the finger at anyone. Nor any reason to do so until we know a lot more.
Alp is a large professional Northern European towing company with very good equipment. They were doing a routine job in thier backyard. At this point all I can do is give them the benefit of the doubt. The nationality of the officers is irrelevant.[/QUOTE]
I agee, no reason to point fingers at this point. But the same is true in general, we should be able to analyze any incident on a “narrow, purely technical or objective” basis without pointing fingers at any point.
There is a differance between having a technical disscussion of errors on one hand and attributing those errors to groups or individuals (like the crew or captain)on the other. But there is no reason we can’t speculate what errors were made or discuss facts as they become known without attribution or blame.
Saying, for example in this case, that the track was laid too close to navigation hazards, the tow gear was too light, or inadequate margin was allowed for possible inaccurate weather forecast is one one thing but blaming the crew (or the routers etc) is another.
There is never going to be a shortage of finger-pointing. Responsible people should be held accoutable but assignment of blame is often very arbitrary .
This quote makes a good point.
Human error is not a distinct category of human performance. After the outcome is clear, any attribution of error is a social and psychological judgment process, not a narrow, purely technical or objective analysis.
[QUOTE=ombugge;189023]I don’t think fear of loosing their jobs are a main issue today. There is a shortage of STCW Certified, Masters, Officers and Engineers in the world. There is competition to hire and retain seagoing personnel with the right skills to serve on specialized vessels, like LNG/LPG Carriers, Chemical Carriers, Heavy Lift Vessels, Shuttle tankers and other sophisticated vessels.
Outside the domestic GoM fleet there is also shortage of experienced personnel to serve on Offshore Vessels, especially those requiring DP Licence, deep water A/H skills etc.[/QUOTE]
There cannot be too much of an STCW officer shortage. Even when they are only looking for a 3000 GT CoC, the recruiters lose interest as soon as they realize that I’m an American.
[QUOTE=ombugge;189022]No GoM Surveyor is likely to have been involved in approving this tow from Norway to Malta.
I don’t know where you have encountered “trip in tow” (Warranty?) Surveyors, but I don’t think we should generalize based on your impression alone.[/QUOTE]
As I understand it, the AIVIQ/KULLUK tow in Alaska used a well know rig moving surveyor from the Gulf of Mexico. I do not know anything, and certainly didn’t say anything, about the surveyor for Winner.
Most of the tow surveyors I have seen came from Seattle. And most did a good job. Tow surveyors seem a lot less common now than they did years ago. Obviously, something has changed with the insurance for general coastwise towing that makes them less necessary.
A couple of times some years ago I saw Brits from the Salvage Association in Alaska. I was not overly impressed with the towing knowledge displayed by the British former master of a cable laying ship. Those guys were a complete waste of time and money.
[QUOTE=tugsailor;189030]There cannot be too much of an STCW officer shortage. Even when they are only looking for a 3000 GT CoC, the recruiters lose interest as soon as they realize that I’m an American.[/QUOTE]
As to why the interest for US seafarers are less, I do not know. Could it have something to do with your very different system of Maritime Education & Training and complex licensing system than in other countries?
(I.E. Hosepipe or Academy and Domestic non-STCW Certification and Ocean Going (STCW compliant)Certification)
It could also be that as the USCG does not recognize any other countries’ Maritime Education & Training or CoCs, it is difficult to get Americans accepted by the flag state, even if they hold STCW compliant CoCs issued by USCG?
I obviously don’t know the answer, but maybe somebody else here do?