# Sea Time On Harbor Tug Without TOAR **URL:** \ **Category:** Maritime Training & Licensing\ **Created:** [July 30, 2022, 7:54am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/sea-time-on-harbor-tug-without-toar/63760 "2022-07-30T07:54:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Seafarer1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Seafarer1220](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Seafarer1220)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 7:54am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/sea-time-on-harbor-tug-without-toar/63760/1 "2022-07-30T07:54:05Z")
I have a question for anyone who has had any experience submitting a sea time letter serving as a “mate” on a harbor tug without a TOAR. I have a third mate unlimited but am looking to pick up some extra work/sea time during my time off working on local harbor tugs. I’ll have well over the 50% thresholds concerning both NC route and tonnage limitations, so just looking to see if having a TOAR is a pre-requisite, or rather, an automatic disqualifier for sea time to be attributed to an upgrade to a 2M AGT. I’ve read some threads and it appears Apprentice mate (steersman) time cannot be attributed from upgrading from 3/M to 2/M, so the discharge would have to be for mate. Assuming the company signs you off as a Mate, is this largely considered mate time by the NMC ---
**Author:** ![BrownWaterGuy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/brownwaterguy/32/4787_2.png) [@BrownWaterGuy](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/BrownWaterGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 1:31pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/sea-time-on-harbor-tug-without-toar/63760/2 "2022-07-30T13:31:57Z")
Do you have Mate of Towing on your license? Based on your asking about a TOAR it sounds like the answer is no. It is not clear how one would get time as Mate on a tugboat without the necessary license. So are you asking a company to both let you serve in a position on their vessel for which you do not have the necessary license and to then write a letter to the Coast Guard telling them what they just did. Curious to know how that goes ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Phoenix](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/capt_phoenix/32/281_2.png) [@Capt\_Phoenix](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Capt_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 5:02pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/sea-time-on-harbor-tug-without-toar/63760/3 "2022-07-30T17:02:25Z")
> [@BrownWaterGuy](#): > > So are you asking a company to both let you serve in a position on their vessel for which you do not have the necessary license and to then write a letter to the Coast Guard telling them what they just did. That sounds like what he’s asking, yes. ---
**Author:** ![jdcavo](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/jdcavo/32/108_2.png) [@jdcavo](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/jdcavo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 6:20pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/sea-time-on-harbor-tug-without-toar/63760/4 "2022-07-30T18:20:36Z")
> [@BrownWaterGuy](#): > > So are you asking a company to both let you serve in a position on their vessel for which you do not have the necessary license and to then write a letter to the Coast Guard telling them what they just did. Or working as a deckhand and wants it counted as “mate.” But it sounds more likely to want the company to write an inaccurate letter. There’s a simple answer. Upgrading from 3rd Mate to 2nd mate requires service as officer in charge of a navigational watch, not “mate.” So if you are not in charge of the watch, it doesn’t count. ---
**Author:** ![BrownWaterGuy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/brownwaterguy/32/4787_2.png) [@BrownWaterGuy](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/BrownWaterGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 8:07pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/sea-time-on-harbor-tug-without-toar/63760/5 "2022-07-30T20:07:43Z")
> [@jdcavo](#): > > Or working as a deckhand and wants it counted as “mate.” But it sounds more likely to want the company to write an inaccurate letter. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt and assumed it was simply a lack of understanding of the inland world by someone with deep sea only “experience”. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer69](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/flyer69/32/6000_2.png) [@Flyer69](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Flyer69)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2022, 7:58pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/sea-time-on-harbor-tug-without-toar/63760/6 "2022-07-31T19:58:16Z")
> [@jdcavo](#): > > Upgrading from 3rd Mate to 2nd mate requires service as officer in charge of a navigational watch, not “mate.” Wow, I was not aware of that distinction. I can think of more than a few OSV guys who have upgraded but were not the OICNW. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Phoenix](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/capt_phoenix/32/281_2.png) [@Capt\_Phoenix](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Capt_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2022, 10:41pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/sea-time-on-harbor-tug-without-toar/63760/7 "2022-08-01T22:41:21Z")
> [@Flyer69](#): > > I can think of more than a few OSV guys who have upgraded but were not the OICNW. Yep!