Refuting Ombugge's left wing rhetoric


And there is no long term plan for the USA. If there is one it isn’t one I look forward to exeriencing. The previews are bad enough.


My disdain for nationalism is universal and that there are some of it in China is a given.
But there is a difference between patriotism/national pride and nationalism of the dangerous kind.

I don’t know if you have been in China, but I have, incl. during the Cultural Revolution, when Nationalism was running rampant and reached feverish proportion.
In today’s China I detect a healthy national pride, although there may be pockets of nationalism that I have not experienced.

My attitude towards refugees and asylum seekers are coloured by by experience from working in Bangladesh and witnessing nationalist thugs storming into a Bihari refugee camp with parangs, killing indiscriminately. Also from picking up well over 2000 Vietnamese refugees in the South China Sea in the late 1970’s when Master on a drillship working there.

I am a firm believer in the rights of people in danger to seek refuge or asylum per the UN Refugee Convention of 1951 and the Protocol of 1967 and for all signatories to honour their obligation to do so:

I am angered by seeing the hypocrisy of those rich countries when the problem suddenly is on their doorstep. For years they have been telling others, incl. non-signatories, that they have to accept millions on their soil, while taking a few select one themselves.

BTW; USA used to be one of the countries that took the most, at 95000 a year. It is still a small number relative to the population and relative to the number of refugees in the world though.
(Sweden is the country that has taken most relative to population)

At the same time they pride themselves of contributing a little bit money from all their riches to help.
At the moment there are over 60 mill. refugees in the world. more then any time since WWII. They are mostly in camps in Bangladesh, the Middle East countries and in Africa, with little hope of returning home soon, or to be resettled in rich countries. The rich countries contribute very little towards their upkeep. (Less than USD 2/pers./day)

A few thousand of those have been taken in by OECD countries, while a few hundred thousand has entered Europe and applied for asylum. Most are held in reception centers for years, before they get permission to stay and work.

There are a lot of migrants that is entering illegally. I may have sympathy with their plight, but they do not have any right of protection and should be repatriated a.s.a.p. rather than be kept in suspense for years. Many are living rough on the streets, incl. children.

So no, I’m not a hypocrite and if you have read my earlier posts in this forum you should know that be now. (Assuming you are not one yourself)


hahahaha holy crap dude THE WAR ON IRAQ WAS NAKED AGGRESSION WHICH IS A WAR CRIME. you had 15 years to learn this basic indisputable fact. The people around the world saying “this is dumb and wrong” were your FRIENDS. The untrustworthy pieces of garbage were the ones lying you into it.


The war wasn’t the argument. Whatever the motive of the war, just or not, Europe’s reluctance to participate send a strong signal to ordinary average Americans that fostered doubt in our strategic relationship. Consequently many here believe (myself included) that our European “partners” might not be there when we call.

France and Germany were heavily invested in the Iraqi oil industry pre 2003, so their opposition was less humanitarian and more economic. Should relations with Russia deteriorate further would Germany be willIng to part itself from its business relationship with Russia, from whom they import 40% of their gas? I think not, as they lost their marbles at the mention of sanctioning the NordStream project.

I find your post interesting given Europes recent action in Libya which was NAKED AGRESSION WHICH IS A WAR CRIME. Funny though, European aggression initiated the armed conflict but was militarily unable to succeed without the assistance of the US. Wether they could not or would not commit the resources is very telling. Libya is in now much worse off and outside of oil investment Europe’s done nothing for the Libyans which proves Europe is as full of shit as everyone else. But Europe called and we were there. Why? Because we are committed to our strategic partnership.


When US called and invoked Article 5, NATO responded as required by the treaty.
In Libya the US stepped in so as not to be seen as a follower, not a leader.


NATO provided only token support in Afganistan. A few troops, very little money, and not much actual fighting. A very halfhearted effort that was just for show. I believe the NATO effort was called International Security Force or ISF. American solders correctly observed that ISF really stood for. “I Suck at Fighting”. Except for the Brits and the Poles, the rest of NATO was useless.

Obama wanted Europe to lead in Libya. Europe couldn’t do it. No more than Europe could do it in Bosnia. So the US, once again, had to do it for Europe. Now Europe wants the US to lead in the Mideast refugee crisis. Fortunately, we are letting Europe screw that up all on its own.

The Germans have never done anything to support the US. The Germans are always behind selling chemicals and technology to despots opposed to the US.

The French have never supported the US in any meaningful way. They have never been good at anything, except premature surrender. The French also love doing business with despots. Remember the Exocet missle s the French sold to Argentina to be used against the Brits? To hell with France, let them surrender to whomever; good riddance.

The Italians? Talk about tits on a bull.

The Turks have become an Islamic dictatorship more aligned with the Russians, Iran, and Syria. They should be kicked out of NATO. Let Russia and Turkey duke it out by themselves. They deserve each other.

The Brits and the Poles are the only reliable NATO allies for the US. The rest are too unwilling or too small to matter.


The comment about the French is inaccurate. The French opposed Iraqi intervention because of its sizable investment in Iraqi oil which, in a war for oil, is fair enough. The French have always been engaged in Africa, especially North Africa (Niger and Mali) where they are doing the heavy lifting against jihadi Militants. They have also sent a number of Legionnaires to Afghanistan and Iraq, where they saw significant combat (unlike the Germans, who primarily fought to get in line at Starbucks).

For me France gets a pass. Without their enormous contribution to our Revolution we would never have achieved our independence. In fact their financial support bankrupted their treasury and set in motion their French Revolution, something we shouldn’t overlook.

Turkey is playing its historical part in the region, always cagey, always autocratic. They tried to get EU membership, but were rebuffed, how friendly should they be with their European Partners? Do a little digging on their recent coup and their lack luster support might make sense.


You’re… right? about Libya being a war of aggression but you think the lesson was that allies should go in together on stupid wars with highly predictable negative consequences lest “average” citizens in Peoria or Bonn lose faith in other countries’ willingness to murder foreigners. ok


States murder foreigners in pursuit of national interests, that’s nothing new. Even our friends from Norway have committed these sins. Should we support each other in stupid wars or where the negative consequences are easily predictable? Yes, that’s why we have a strategic relationship. I don’t look at these conflicts in a humanitarian scope. Take for example the Libyan intervention. The result was a failed Libyan State, lots of innocent casualties, and a refugee crisis but it also created access to the largest oil reserves in Africa, which Europe desperately needed, both in resources and revenue. While these wars and interventions are terrible and the consequences are predictable, they are absolutely necessary unless you want to severely alter your standard of living (and not in a good way). Call bullshit if you want but it’s true.


Why have USA fallen behind on immigration?:


Agree wholeheartedly… The sooner we copy China’s policy on immigration, the sooner we can implement their good kind of nationalism. Let’s steal an idea from them for a change.


There are about 110.000 Americans living and working in China:
And they are not alone. Expats of different nationalities are found even in remote parts of China


" WAR is a racket. It always has been.

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. "

Major General Smedley Butler


So let’s see, 110,000 out of a population of 1.379 billion give a .008% representation of that nationality.

I agree with Bugge that China’s immigration model is one the US should adopt… The sooner the better.


The Chinese model is to attract talents from all over the world to bring in new ideas and bring with them contacts in their country of origin who will benefit China in their efforts to expand their trade and influence to match that of America.

Other than that, the Chinese policy has always been to absorb any invaders or migrants.

BTW; 0.008% is only Americans, but maybe nobody else count in your mind??


China employs as many Americans, and other native English speakers with any BA or BS college degree as they can find to teach English in China. Thousands of them. Huge demand. There are also a lot private schools teaching English and prep courses for American college entrance exams. This is actually a very worthwhile thing for a young person to do for a couple of years.


If you think the USA’s problem is immigration you need to be more specific.
If immigration stopped tomorrow how would your life be better? Would the GDP or your 401K go up? Has an illegal or legal immigrant taken your job? If so why? Were they better qualified or willing to work for less money? Perhaps time would be better spent investigating the people that hire all these immigrants instead of the immigrants themselves.
The USA has problems but immigration is far from its biggest problem. It is just a diversion .As Lyndon Baines Johnson the 36th president and one of the most masterful politicians in US history said.
“I’ll tell you what’s at the bottom of it,” he said. “If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.”


Most folks don’t know Smedley Butler. He was a true American hero, his speech “War is a Racket” should be required reading because history does not repeat itself but it does rhyme.

Smedley Darlington Butler (July 30, 1881 – June 21, 1940) was a United States Marine Corps major general, the highest rank authorized at that time, and at the time of his death the most decorated Marine in U.S. history.

By the end of his career, Butler had received 16 medals, five for heroism. He is one of 19 men to receive the Medal of Honor twice, one of three to be awarded both the Marine Corps Brevet Medal (along with Wendell Neville and David Porter) and the Medal of Honor, and the only Marine to be awarded the Brevet Medal and two Medals of Honor, all for separate actions.
In 1933, he became involved in a controversy known as the Business Plot, when he told a congressional committee that a group of wealthy industrialists were planning a military coup to overthrow Franklin D. Roosevelt, with Butler selected to lead a march of veterans to become dictator, similar to other Fascist regimes at that time. The individuals involved all denied the existence of a plot and the media ridiculed the allegations. A final report by a special House of Representatives Committee confirmed some of Butler’s testimony.


Not true. Unchecked immigration leads to labor dilution and creates downward pressure on wage gains, to make no mention upward pressure on social and infrastructure spending. While this is not effecting most white collar professionals, yet, I can assure it is taking its toll on low skilled labor, namely the African- American community. The practice allows employers to pay a sub-market wage for for a service rendered so at its core it exploits not just the worker but the entire labor force. The problem isn’t that the indigenous worker won’t do the work, it’s that he won’t do the work for the wage provided as the wages don’t meet acceptable market levels.


Labor dilution? How? If employers are paying top dollar why aren’t US citizens flocking to the jobs? Now, if these are legal immigrants being hired because no US citizen will work for the money being offered then the answer must be US citizens are lazy. Can’t blame the immigrant for that.
On the other hand if these are illegal immigrants being employed then the problem is with the employer breaking the law.
The funny thing is I keep seeing all these statistics put out by the government saying unemployment is at a record low but wages aren’t going up. In economics classes we learned that when there is a shortage of workers or products wages or prices go up.
The entire premise of illegal immigrants being a wage suppressor is a no starter, without a law breaking employer they can’t get a job… Now the legal temporary workers? That is another story entirely. They are for sure suppressing wages. Especially in IT , service business and soon in the offshore oil field. Heck Mr MAGA Trump employs almost 100% seasonal immigrant workers at his resorts in Florida and has for years. Long before he announced for president the Palm Beach Post newspaper wrote a good article about that.