Civmar idiots? Odd take for fact finding where civmars are the topic…
[QUOTE=Xmsccapt(ret);84720]Civmar idiots? Odd take for fact finding where civmars are the topic…[/QUOTE]
Geez, I’m glad to see you show-up - not many of us deep draft types on the forum.
Reference was to those Civmars as pointed out by UnRep King, Capt.: PMH for diarrhea, etc… They are out there and I have talked to the union reps out on roll out, getting some of the most unbelievable feedback on actual comments and questions. Fortunately, we do have a number of mariners with brain cells that fire sequentially, so hopeful that the comments going in get attention.
[QUOTE=c.captain;81519]Can any of us not sailing for MSC have the slightest understanding of the level of ludicrous inane bullshit that runs through that fleet? I thank God Almighty himself that I never became a CivMar, Of course, people like the UniBlob revels in all of this nonsense just like Capt. Kenneth R. Force, USMS revels in his KP Marching Band. There’s really very little difference between the two. Same diarrhea different commode![/QUOTE]
You do have an unique way with words, c.captain.
“same diarrhea different commode” - Was that Sir Winston taking about the Huns?
[QUOTE=+A465B;81860]UniBlob ! Sounds like the perfect nickname for BlankChek !
While you might not have missed much by not sailing MSC - it ain’t all that bad, at least below decks where there is no quibbling over who gets to muck out the MSD. Keep laughing, it’s just a gummin’t yob, the pay comes on time - cash or check - the work is more or less interesting and you can quit anytime ! The CMPI just is a set of rules explaining how to get paid and what is expected of you and the employer.[/QUOTE]
Agreed !!
I sailed MSC and have nothing but the best to say about my experiences, of course that was back in the 70’s but doubtful things have changed. Some of the best Engineers, Mates, Chiefs, Captains, and Crew I knew were MSC - So - what’s all this MSC bashing about?
[QUOTE=Xmsccapt(ret);82527]Most recently I was asked by a young mariner what I knew about MSC. I passed to him that in my view MSC was not the place to be, and that there are better employers. I cited poor leadership from the shore side management level as well as poor USN leadership. In short, I think he would enjoy the Rhodesian army more…[/QUOTE]
Does this mean things have changed since the 70’s?
[QUOTE=UnRepKing;84510]So funny to watch all the zombie msc civmars during the presentation. This stuff is so far over their head/IQ. And then comes the insane question/answer session. “If dinner gives me diarrhea am I entitled to a penalty meal hour?” You can’t make this stuff up. I am starting to think that many civmars are “unemployable”, this is the only place they can exist. If not for msc they would be on the street or dead.[/QUOTE]
Good Lord - Things have changed since the 70’s.
Before I retired during some of these fact finding cmpi meetings the topics went from cargo pay for stowing below decks after completing the load ( from pier to deck) and other attempts at nonsense. Nope, not cargo pay or even penalty pay… Part of your job. The bs for blocking and bracing is along the same ludicrous mind set. And no, the ynsk does not get cargo pay for filling bins with items ( how many times has that been asked ). Overtime for the ships chairman doing his duty? Do I read this right? What bullshit. If someone does not want to be a ships chairman then they should not, but paid OT for it? And what is a contractual coffee and clean-up time? Yea, it was past time for me to detach my mind from Msc. While I had some adventures and met life long friends, what a pain in the butt place it became to be.
It’s changed sense the 80’s
[QUOTE=Xmsccapt(ret);84804]Before I retired during some of these fact finding cmpi meetings the topics went from cargo pay for stowing below decks after completing the load ( from pier to deck) and other attempts at nonsense. Nope, not cargo pay or even penalty pay… Part of your job. The bs for blocking and bracing is along the same ludicrous mind set. And no, the ynsk does not get cargo pay for filling bins with items ( how many times has that been asked ). Overtime for the ships chairman doing his duty? Do I read this right? What bullshit. If someone does not want to be a ships chairman then they should not, but paid OT for it? And what is a contractual coffee and clean-up time? Yea, it was past time for me to detach my mind from Msc. While I had some adventures and met life long friends, what a pain in the butt place it became to be.[/QUOTE]
I had no idea. When I left MSC I stayed in contact with a few MSC shipmates but as time slipped away that stopped. All of these shipmates would have retired by the late 70’s to mid 80’s. .
What is the purpose of now making stateside ships set sea watches at midnight? I really doubt the ships are going to follow this new rule, they will continue to set sea watches at 0800, 1200, etc…
You may have some jerk-off Captains who make you do this.
And I can guarantee that no engine department will follow this rule. You can’t even get those guys to go to a fire and boat drill.
[QUOTE=UnRepKing;84892]What is the purpose of now making stateside ships set sea watches at midnight? I really doubt the ships are going to follow this new rule, they will continue to set sea watches at 0800, 1200, etc…
You may have some jerk-off Captains who make you do this.
And I can guarantee that no engine department will follow this rule. You can’t even get those guys to go to a fire and boat drill.[/QUOTE]
WHAT !!!
What in the world is going on here?
As for sea watches, the Deck and Engine Depts had the ability to set them as they so fit - in other words what was best for the respective departments, When I sailed Chief I always asked the First what was best (taking ship board repairs into consideration, etc). The Mate, done likewise. What’s the big deal here?
Need to edit: The above pertains to non-union ships, aboard a Union Carrier, sea/port watches were spelled out in the the union/company agreement. There was always flexibility, on a happy ship.
No one’s arguing about part of the job. But seeing as you were a Captain as MSC, I assume you read the part of the CMPI 610 about Prevailing Maritime Practice? Yes, blocking and bracing cargo in the hold is part of the job, but it is not and never has been one of the traditional and customary duties of a deck seaman. It’s longshoreman work. It was actually in the old 610 for Lant and had enough provision to make a fight of it in Pac. Trouble is, there were too many black-hearted cheats sailing Master (on 4 different ships they had actually removed that page of the CMPI copy that mariners had access to) and not enough mariners with spine to force it to the table…until now. As to the YNSK’s, the beef isn’t about sorting stock in the holds, it’s about tally work done ashore, especially in Fujairah. This is verifiable PMP, solidly defended in Longshoremen contracts. Coffee time is contractual in the private sector and clean up time is a long standing practice there as well. These two items are the biggest, most frequently used retaliation tools is management’s toolbox to suppress union activity on a ship. And Ship’s Chairman in the private sector get 1 hour OT per week for routine union work. At MSC, I have personally had to go toe to toe with some truly bad actors in the department head and master’s chairs. Bullshit disciplinaries for no other reason than personalities, refusing to pay PMH’s because they 'didn’t like them", unequal distribution of OT, the works. Having to do the legwork on this stuff while being publicly, actively retaliated against is no picnic. And even after winning (did that 28 out of 30 times so far) the cretins in khaki that tried to fight me were never held accountable for it (except once: he got relieved of command and retired).
So yes, all the stuff we have on the table is legit and worth the fight. I’m surprised that you, who are usually so level headed and reasonable, would respond the way you did.
As a self professed “self-hating” CIVMAR, I can agree to some of the unemployable comments and the like, we certainly have a fair share of intelligent lacking persons working for us in the GOGO world (as I’m sure they do in other PM categories too.
As for the new CMPI, I liked it from my initial viewing, think the OT half hour rule going away is fair, like the loss of 2hr min (PAC) going away, PMH’s are clearer (granted it’s how I’ve always seen and paid it anyway…) cargo trash is BS, but at least it’s in ink (personal opinions BTW), cargo team defined is nice (again, been the norm for me, but glad to see it in ink) I didn’t catch the part about the niteD, but think it needed some attention (mainly cause the Gobment keeps biting its nose to spite its face for some of the BS rules they have for mandatory W/O’s in shipyards…but that’s what makes me self hating!!)
The midnight sea watch is nice for making it standard, the home steaders won’t like it, the career navigators and 3rd Mates won’t like it, but hey…with all the changes coming their way and the Ops-O job, there’s a lot they won’t like. The fact that most of the higher ups I’ve met in my 10 year career here have instilled in me their distain for any changes (except those they make…) I realize that some folks will fight this roll out just for fun or bitterness, but I think overall there have been some good changes.
And the fact I heard another poster say only the Dept Heads got to view the briefing, says something is wrong with that ship, we had em come to us in BAH, saved the entire Friday afternoon for the team for Q&A to the crew…it didn’t last but an hour (by choice, not design)
I think the change and clarity is a thing for the better, but that’s just me…
Interesting to see how things have changed.
Interesting to see how things have not, for example, the Captain who took it upon himself to rip out pages, who does he think he is, Captain O’Reilly (from the old days)?
I admire your grit, Salinity Now.
Didn’t mean to give the impression that i thought the whole document was bad. Fact is, I agree with you, Salinity. I rate it an 85% improvement, 10% no change and 5% in need of another look.
I don’t resent the changes so much, but now that I’ve read the document, I’m disappointed that the roll-out team wasn’t accurate/forthcoming. For example, in the Q&A session:
Our cargo mate asked if he’d now qualify for cargo pay (as per the old CMPI, AOs were excluded from cargo pay for liquid cargo), he was told ‘yes’. But, according to the document, cargo mates and cargo engineers do not qualify for cargo pay when supervising the loading of liquid cargoes.
A third mate asked if watch standers on call-out for UNREPs (who would then have to rotate though the meal) would qualify for penalty meal hours. Once again they answered yes. But in reading the document, the line covering penalty meal hours starts: “Dayworking civmars are entitled…”
They didn’t breathe a word about night diff. to us, had to find that one for myself.
I have to wonder how many more surprises I’ll find as I continue reading.
Sure I know all about the prevailing practice stance of the cmpi, Perhaps Msc should use that to correct the long over due correction to not paying masters and Chiefs OT when over the cap. Have a cap within the commercial fleets?
I always paid exactly what the cmpi said to the letter. I, nor anyone I ever knew ripped anything out of the document. I don’t recall anything within the cmpi regarding penalty time for blocking and bracing… Simple fact from my memory.
Personally I never had a problem with the crew making money, if anything I was liberal with the rules. What I did have issue with was the snakes ashore that found fault with the afloat management and unlic in almost topic one could mention. What I found even more disturbing was the past civmars that worked ashore assisting the shore siders for years so much that it became a permanent job. Some of these jokers ( or as some would call them leaches) were so entrenched into the shoreside that when time came to renew their license they were short sea time. Those are the ones I had issue with as they paraded out to the ships and spouted bs to the capt and ,crews while drawing a fat paycheck, subsistence and in the end nothing changed.
Yea, msc has its issues… A lot of it is management itself.
Agree whole heartedly, Captain. I tried to be one of those “evaluators” for a short period and nearly went barking mad. i stayed grounded and got back to the fleet in less than a year, older, wiser and a bit more disillusioned. I didn’t mean to imply that you, personally, might have been one of the “bad actors”. Apologies if it came through that way. As to the missing pages and all the rest, it did happen. i don’t think the page issue was malice so much as shoreside incompetence when sent.
[QUOTE=UnRepKing;81785]They better not mess with my St. Lawrence Seaway line handling duty pay.[/QUOTE]
The better not mess with my penalty time for handling uncured hides and lampblack either.
In all seriousness. I haven’t read it yet but somehow I see CIVMARS getting screwed down the line by what will appear to be a typo but is actually designed to extract pay from our pockets.