# National Maritime Day Opinion: U.S. Must Maintain its Merchant Marine Fleet to Protect Our Sovereignty **URL:** \ **Category:** Professional Mariner Forum\ **Created:** [May 23, 2023, 1:34pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/national-maritime-day-opinion-u-s-must-maintain-its-merchant-marine-fleet-to-protect-our-sovereignty/66194 "2023-05-23T13:34:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![johnny.dollar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f8ce5/32.png) [@johnny.dollar](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/johnny.dollar)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2023, 7:16pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/national-maritime-day-opinion-u-s-must-maintain-its-merchant-marine-fleet-to-protect-our-sovereignty/66194/41 "2023-05-26T19:16:17Z")
> [@RPC72](#): > > As you point out, vessel opex on a ship crewed by Americans is more expensive than using foreign mariners; currently about a **$15k/day** difference (obtained from an operator of internationally trading US flag vessels). However the difference in daily capex for a US vs foreign built ship is much greater. For example: A tanker that costs $50 million to build in Korea would cost around $200 million to build in the US. The cost for amortizing this $150m difference over a ship life of 30 years at 8% interest and a scrap value of $2m is **$36k/day.** You’re trying to explain how financial decisions are made by bean-counters to a bunch of financial illiterate sailors. It is futile. Too add to your thought (which I completely agree with), crewing costs are also a variable expense, much like fuel and other O&M costs. But capital expenses, especially initial purchase price, are FIXED and usually the main go/no go decision driver when doing the initial feasibility analysis. And you are giving 30yr service life, which is being very kind/conservative. Shorten the life and the difference in capex amortized per day makes it even worse! And crewing costs can be adjusted, as it’s variable. But capital expense is there forever. ---
**Author:** ![RPC72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@RPC72](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/RPC72)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2023, 7:28pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/national-maritime-day-opinion-u-s-must-maintain-its-merchant-marine-fleet-to-protect-our-sovereignty/66194/42 "2023-05-26T19:28:50Z")
Exactly what ‘wrong answers’? US shipyard costs are grossly inefficient compared to overseas yards. A ship that costs $40m from a foreign yard would cost ~$200m from a US yard. Why should American consumers pay for this? Yes, US yards would likely close except for those doing military work. This has happened over the years with hundreds of other products; TV’s, computers, virtually all other electronics, clothing, etc. The US manufacturing facilities that made these products closed because they could not compete. Tell us why ships are any different. The National Defense argument for keeping inefficient US yards in business is bogus. US yards would never be able to provide the number of ships needed in a short time. The crisis would be over before new US-built ships could enter service. Your prediction that my ‘ilk’ would be back trying to get foreign mariners to replace American mariners is absurd. It is illegal for non-Americans to work on US interstate commerce; you should know that. This is why we don’t have Indian pilots flying planes within the US or Jamaican truck drivers on our highways. It is also directly counter to my ‘ilk’s’ goal of increasing the size of the USMM (US mariners). I have a goal. What is your goal? ---
**Author:** ![BeerCaptain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@BeerCaptain](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/BeerCaptain)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2023, 8:01pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/national-maritime-day-opinion-u-s-must-maintain-its-merchant-marine-fleet-to-protect-our-sovereignty/66194/43 "2023-05-26T20:01:47Z")
> [@RPC72](#): > > US has to be giving Korean cars a cost advantage in Hawaii and hurting US manufacturers. If you did your homework as you tell others you’d know that JA ships carry Korean cars from California to Hawaii. ---
**Author:** ![RPC72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@RPC72](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/RPC72)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2023, 8:51pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/national-maritime-day-opinion-u-s-must-maintain-its-merchant-marine-fleet-to-protect-our-sovereignty/66194/44 "2023-05-26T20:51:04Z")
Got a site on that? ---
**Author:** ![Hawespiper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ebca7d/32.png) [@Hawespiper](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Hawespiper)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2023, 10:18pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/national-maritime-day-opinion-u-s-must-maintain-its-merchant-marine-fleet-to-protect-our-sovereignty/66194/46 "2023-05-26T22:18:42Z")
> [@RPC72](#): > > Exactly what ‘wrong answers’? That 56+22=99 As I previously said, your financial arguments make a lot of sense even to this financially illiterate sailor. As I have also previously said, they are irrelevant to the purpose of the US build requirement in the Jones Act. > [@RPC72](#): > > Why should American consumers pay for this? Because it’s the only thing ensuring we maintain our ability to produce a ocean going cargo ships, which are vital to our national security. You say these yards are not ideal and are inefficient. Another point on which I agree. However, inefficient is better than non existent which would be the result of your proposal. > [@RPC72](#): > > Tell us why ships are any different. They aren’t different. They would offshore just as those other industries have offshored if only financial concerns are considered. > [@RPC72](#): > > Your prediction that my ‘ilk’ would be back trying to get foreign mariners to replace American mariners is absurd. It is illegal for non-Americans to work on US interstate commerce; you should know that. Yes, just as it is currently illegal to ship cargo from one US port to another on a foreign built ship. You’re trying to get that law changed and, if successful, would be right back to further line your pockets at the expense of American industry, workers, strength, and sovereignty. > [@RPC72](#): > > I have a goal. Which is to get your camel nose into the tent. > [@RPC72](#): > > What is your goal? To zip up the tent to keep you and the Cato institute out in the cold. ---
**Author:** ![johnny.dollar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f8ce5/32.png) [@johnny.dollar](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/johnny.dollar)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2023, 1:14am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/national-maritime-day-opinion-u-s-must-maintain-its-merchant-marine-fleet-to-protect-our-sovereignty/66194/47 "2023-05-27T01:14:36Z")
> [@Hawespiper](#): > > Because it’s the only thing ensuring we maintain our ability to produce a ocean going cargo ships, which are vital to our national security. You say these yards are not ideal and are inefficient. Another point on which I agree. However, inefficient is better than non existent which would be the result of your proposal. Ever been on a Veteran Class tanker? “assembled in USA of Korean design and parts” ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Seadog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/67e7ee/32.png) [@Chief\_Seadog](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Chief_Seadog)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2023, 1:44am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/national-maritime-day-opinion-u-s-must-maintain-its-merchant-marine-fleet-to-protect-our-sovereignty/66194/48 "2023-05-27T01:44:21Z")
Not all the ships built have been of Korean design and parts. ---
**Author:** ![LI\_Domer](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/li_domer/32/768_2.png) [@LI\_Domer](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/LI_Domer)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2023, 1:45am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/national-maritime-day-opinion-u-s-must-maintain-its-merchant-marine-fleet-to-protect-our-sovereignty/66194/49 "2023-05-27T01:45:50Z")
At least Korea is a strategic ally of ours. ---
**Author:** ![Hawespiper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ebca7d/32.png) [@Hawespiper](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Hawespiper)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2023, 4:14am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/national-maritime-day-opinion-u-s-must-maintain-its-merchant-marine-fleet-to-protect-our-sovereignty/66194/50 "2023-05-27T04:14:36Z")
> [@johnny.dollar](#): > > Ever been on a Veteran Class tanker? Yes, for the past 10+ years > [@johnny.dollar](#): > > assembled in USA Right… Which was only made possible by the US build requirement of the Jones Act ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Phoenix](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/capt_phoenix/32/281_2.png) [@Capt\_Phoenix](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Capt_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2023, 7:11am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/national-maritime-day-opinion-u-s-must-maintain-its-merchant-marine-fleet-to-protect-our-sovereignty/66194/51 "2023-05-27T07:11:09Z")
> [@Johnnymariner](#): > > costs would go down if not only cheaper built vessels were used (little savings) but also if more vessels serviced those areas (big savings). I don’t think residents in those places would see any price difference if the Jones Act went away entirely so I don’t think your conclusion here is correct. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Phoenix](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/capt_phoenix/32/281_2.png) [@Capt\_Phoenix](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Capt_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2023, 7:16am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/national-maritime-day-opinion-u-s-must-maintain-its-merchant-marine-fleet-to-protect-our-sovereignty/66194/52 "2023-05-27T07:16:20Z")
> [@RPC72](#): > > ‘The (Jones) Act is a critical line of defense against China’s maritime dominance’ is, unfortunately, nonsense… > Our shipyards are high priced and inefficient because of economies of scale. They may deliver 3 ships in a good year while the big three Korean yards each deliver close to 100. So why not advocate for the US government to do what China did and heavily subsidize our shipyards? Of course we can’t compete with Chinese yards when the Chinese government dumps billions of dollars into them. We spend ridiculous amounts of money on “defense spending”, why can’t some of that go to modernizing and subsidizing US shipyards? ---
**Author:** ![RPC72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@RPC72](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/RPC72)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2023, 9:44am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/national-maritime-day-opinion-u-s-must-maintain-its-merchant-marine-fleet-to-protect-our-sovereignty/66194/53 "2023-05-27T09:44:22Z")
Shipbuilding less vital to national security than medicines, electronics, computers, mobile phones, semiconductors and even clothing…most of which we import from places like China. All of these products are made largely overseas for economic reasons, i.e. it is more expensive to make them in the U.S. We import about 40% of our medical supplies, with China being the largest source. Which would we miss more during a crisis; shipbuilding or antibiotics? And as said, in times of crisis our shipyards would be of minimal to no value. For all of those who believe shipbuilding is vital to U.S. national defense, give us one scenario in which our shipbuilding capacity would be relied upon to win a war. And yes, I am familiar with Veteran Class tankers, which are made by Norwegian-owned Philly Shipyard, Inc. It takes about 2 years for the yard to build a tanker, by which time most crises would be over. ---
**Author:** ![RPC72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@RPC72](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/RPC72)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2023, 9:48am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/national-maritime-day-opinion-u-s-must-maintain-its-merchant-marine-fleet-to-protect-our-sovereignty/66194/54 "2023-05-27T09:48:53Z")
Consumers that rely upon JA shipping, like those in PR, Alaska and Hawaii are most certainly paying higher prices for those items. ---
**Author:** ![RPC72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@RPC72](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/RPC72)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2023, 9:56am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/national-maritime-day-opinion-u-s-must-maintain-its-merchant-marine-fleet-to-protect-our-sovereignty/66194/55 "2023-05-27T09:56:14Z")
The government and consumers do heavily subsidize our shipbuilding industry, via the JA. Someone has to pay for a JA ship that costs $200m to build in the U.S. vs $40m overseas. Why should we subsidize shipbuilding and not electronics, computers, etc which are more vital to national defense? ---
**Author:** ![Kennebec\_Captain](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/kennebec_captain/32/13_2.png) [@Kennebec\_Captain](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Kennebec_Captain)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2023, 10:28am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/national-maritime-day-opinion-u-s-must-maintain-its-merchant-marine-fleet-to-protect-our-sovereignty/66194/56 "2023-05-27T10:28:00Z")
> [@RPC72](#): > > Alaska and Hawaii are most certainly paying higher prices for those items. The prices in the store circulars that come in the Sunday paper for Fred Meyer are the same in Seattle as in Juneau. To the penny. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Phoenix](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/capt_phoenix/32/281_2.png) [@Capt\_Phoenix](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Capt_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2023, 10:30am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/national-maritime-day-opinion-u-s-must-maintain-its-merchant-marine-fleet-to-protect-our-sovereignty/66194/57 "2023-05-27T10:30:23Z")
> [@RPC72](#): > > Why should we subsidize shipbuilding and not electronics, computers, etc which are more vital to national defense? The government is subsidizing microchip manufacturing in the US now because they saw how bad it is to have such vital components made in other countries. > [@RPC72](#): > > consumers do heavily subsidize our shipbuilding industry, via the JA Paying for a service (shipping a product) isn’t a subsidy. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Phoenix](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/capt_phoenix/32/281_2.png) [@Capt\_Phoenix](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Capt_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2023, 10:33am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/national-maritime-day-opinion-u-s-must-maintain-its-merchant-marine-fleet-to-protect-our-sovereignty/66194/58 "2023-05-27T10:33:28Z")
> [@RPC72](#): > > are most certainly paying higher prices for those items. Not because of the Jones Act. The extra cost, when broken down per can of soup, is unnoticeable to the consumer. ---
**Author:** ![RPC72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@RPC72](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/RPC72)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2023, 11:25am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/national-maritime-day-opinion-u-s-must-maintain-its-merchant-marine-fleet-to-protect-our-sovereignty/66194/59 "2023-05-27T11:25:03Z")
Right, so who is paying for the higher cost of using JA ships? National and large brands often have uniform prices throughout the U.S. so their prices are not indicative. ---
**Author:** ![RPC72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@RPC72](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/RPC72)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2023, 11:28am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/national-maritime-day-opinion-u-s-must-maintain-its-merchant-marine-fleet-to-protect-our-sovereignty/66194/60 "2023-05-27T11:28:47Z")
We know that shipping is much more expensive than it would be on foreign built ships…that is not up for debate. Those higher costs are passed on to consumers…we also know this is true. There are billions of ‘cans of soup’ sold. ---
**Author:** ![RPC72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@RPC72](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/RPC72)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2023, 11:29am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/national-maritime-day-opinion-u-s-must-maintain-its-merchant-marine-fleet-to-protect-our-sovereignty/66194/61 "2023-05-27T11:29:54Z")
Yes, it certainly is a subsidy when it is required by federal law. [Previous page](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/national-maritime-day-opinion-u-s-must-maintain-its-merchant-marine-fleet-to-protect-our-sovereignty/66194.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/national-maritime-day-opinion-u-s-must-maintain-its-merchant-marine-fleet-to-protect-our-sovereignty/66194.md?page=4)