# MSC proposed CIVMAR crewing model **URL:** \ **Category:** Military Sealift Command\ **Created:** [March 7, 2018, 9:37pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/msc-proposed-civmar-crewing-model/47528 "2018-03-07T21:37:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DeckApe](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/deckape/32/1271_2.png) [@DeckApe](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/DeckApe)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 9:37pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/msc-proposed-civmar-crewing-model/47528/1 "2018-03-07T21:37:27Z")
The following is a draft proposal from MSC that’s started making the rounds. > [@](#): > > PROPOSED CIVILIAN MARINER (CIVMAR) CREWING MODEL – PILOT PROGRAM > > 1. Executive Summary. This document describes a pilot CIVMAR crewing model intended to test the concept of assigning crewmembers to a vessel for two years. The pilot program will run for a duration of 12 months. The principal difference between this proposal and the present CIVMAR assignment model is that under the current model CIVMARS are assigned to ships by Marine Placement Specialists (MPS) for a minimal period of four months. MPS coordinate with the ship to manage leave, training and replacements for crewmembers who have completed their minimum four-month assignment. During the pilot, crewmembers will be assigned to the ship for a period of 12 months and all leave and training will be managed by the ship’s Master. To facilitate the decentralization of crew management from the MPS to the ship’s Master, the ship will be allocated a portion of the CIVMAR pipeline which will be assigned to the ship. > > 2. Proposal. For this crewing pilot, USNS Joshua Humphreys and USNS Pecos will be used to “pilot” this concept with the goal for each ship to function independently of MPS with the exception of emergencies. The ship’s Master will manage the personnel readiness of his command to include leave and training. MPS will support as needed, but generally will not interfere with the Master’s management of the crew. The following parameters will apply: > > a. The pilot program will run for a duration of twelve months. If successful, the expectation is that crew members will serve aboard ships for two year tours. > > b. The participating ships will be manned to 115% of the Ship’s Manning Scale for the duration of the pilot. > > i. CONUS – The ship’s manning scale directs a three station manning level of 74 personnel. The ship will be manned to 85 personnel. > > ii. OCONUS – The ship’s manning scale directs a five station manning level of 89 personnel. The ship will be manned to 102 personnel. > > iii. If a ship deploys during the pilot, the manning level will flex between three and five stations. > > c. The existing crew of each ship will remain assigned to the ship for a period of 12 months. Newly reporting crew members will be informed of the pilot duration. > > d. The ship’s Master will have authority granted within Navy Regulations and MSC > Policy to manage the crew as necessary to maintain: > > i. Ships Readiness > > ii. Operational demands > > iii. Crew Leave and morale > > iv. Good Order and Discipline > > e. Director, Total Force Manager (TFM) will continue to support the Master as > needed, and will maintain manpower ashore to replace personnel that require > permanent removal from the ship. > > f. MSC policies regarding overdue relief will not be applicable during the pilot. > However, leave may be granted at the discretion of the Master. > > g. MSC policy directing members to be onboard a ship for a minimum of four > months prior to receiving ship’s funded leave is suspended for the pilot. However, travel authorization will be limited to twice per year with the exception of AMCROSS messages. > > h. The Master or his/her designee will work with the N12 CIVMAR Training Department to obtain quotas for any required training. All tuition cost associated with training will be the responsibility of Director, TFM. > > i. Employees and their supervisors are mutually responsible for requesting and managing leave to mitigate forfeiture of accumulated annual leave. > > j. The Director TFM is responsible for managing the pilot and will be the focal point for the collection of metrics and lessons learned. > > 1. Requirements for Relief of Key Personnel. Temporary promotions will be coordinated with Director, TFM to ensure the individual meets the qualifications for the position and that personnel actions are processed accordingly. COMSC retains the sole authority to temporarily promote Masters and Chief Engineers. ---
**Author:** ![GLMASailor](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/glmasailor/32/1293_2.png) [@GLMASailor](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/GLMASailor)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 11:03pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/msc-proposed-civmar-crewing-model/47528/2 "2018-03-07T23:03:54Z")
> [@DeckApe](#): > > If successful, the expectation is that crew members will serve aboard ships for two year tours. Are they serious!? I know people there like to do longer hitches but that sounds like a good way to loose a lot of your workforce. ---
**Author:** ![New3M](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/new3m/32/394_2.png) [@New3M](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/New3M)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 11:33pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/msc-proposed-civmar-crewing-model/47528/3 "2018-03-07T23:33:31Z")
I don’t think they intend for the crew to be on for 2 years straight, since it says the four month hitch is “suspended.” Maybe they’re trying out what most shipping companies do…get a consistent tour length and send the same people back to the same ship for 2 years. If that’s what’s going on it sounds like a great idea. If they want people to sign on for 2 years straight…that’s just stupid. ---
**Author:** ![LI\_Domer](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/li_domer/32/768_2.png) [@LI\_Domer](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/LI_Domer)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 11:59pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/msc-proposed-civmar-crewing-model/47528/4 "2018-03-07T23:59:24Z")
Sounds like a 2 year hitch, where you’re allowed to request sick and vacation time. Still sounds ridiculous. They need to move to even time. In this new plan, if you get a nice ship you’ll really luck out, but if you get a bad ship, you might as well quit. ---
**Author:** ![Lee\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Lee\_Shore](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Lee_Shore)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 1:39am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/msc-proposed-civmar-crewing-model/47528/5 "2018-03-08T01:39:28Z")
I left MSC because of the long hitches. I don’t see merchant mariners rushing to sign up for a 2 year enlistment-like commitment. It’s wishful thinking in the MSC office trying to dump a heavier HR responsibility on the master. ---
**Author:** ![twackineer](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/twackineer/32/199_2.png) [@twackineer](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/twackineer)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 6:23am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/msc-proposed-civmar-crewing-model/47528/6 "2018-03-08T06:23:24Z")
How can a pilot program that only runs for 12 months evaluate a process that will take 2 years lol? Is this why it takes 4 times the crew for MSC to accomplish what contract crews do? ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Newport](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/alan_newport/32/3067_2.png) [@Alan\_Newport](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Alan_Newport)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 11:51am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/msc-proposed-civmar-crewing-model/47528/7 "2018-03-08T11:51:15Z")
What’s the OPTEMPO of an MSC CLF ship? I suppose this wouldn’t be so bad if you were on the USNS Neversail, but you also don’t get the same amount of “shore duty” that the active duty side gets. Then again I wish we could get to even 100% of our authorized manning. ---
**Author:** ![samat3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@samat3](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/samat3)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 1:08pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/msc-proposed-civmar-crewing-model/47528/8 "2018-03-08T13:08:19Z")
Since ships funded leave is a max of 30 days, they can’t be trying for even time over a 2 year period. Are these 2 ships having a harder time keeping crewmembers than on other ships? I forsee a larger number of 107’s (medical discharges) than before. Maybe they’re putting the dead weight on them, so they’ll quit? I know a couple good candidates, if that’s the case. ---
**Author:** ![Jeffrox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ea5d25/32.png) [@Jeffrox](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Jeffrox)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 11:27am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/msc-proposed-civmar-crewing-model/47528/9 "2018-03-09T11:27:23Z")
The contract ship don’t do what the gray hulls do. ---
**Author:** ![Skallywag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@Skallywag](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Skallywag)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 1:48pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/msc-proposed-civmar-crewing-model/47528/10 "2018-03-09T13:48:11Z")
This may be a deal breaker for me. A large part of the appeal of MSC has been the change of scenery every 4-6 months. ---
**Author:** ![shipengr](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/shipengr/32/485_2.png) [@shipengr](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/shipengr)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 8:18pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/msc-proposed-civmar-crewing-model/47528/11 "2018-03-09T20:18:53Z")
I’m just trying to reconcile the expected schedule here, and the benefit for that matter. If travel authorization is only to be granted twice per year then either they’re looking at 5on/1off or maybe they’ll grant more than just 30days leave. I sure I’m not the only one who left MSC because of the schedule and would have stayed for even time. ---
**Author:** ![LI\_Domer](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/li_domer/32/768_2.png) [@LI\_Domer](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/LI_Domer)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 10:32pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/msc-proposed-civmar-crewing-model/47528/12 "2018-03-09T22:32:55Z")
In this model they’d also have to send you off the ship to do some of your training as well. ---
**Author:** ![KhunJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9fc348/32.png) [@KhunJack](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/KhunJack)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 3:21am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/msc-proposed-civmar-crewing-model/47528/13 "2018-03-16T03:21:24Z")
Yes, part of your time off is to keep training and medical requirements up. Those are already excessive at MSC since they try to make the CIVMARs more like active duty. - The pilot is on two ships USNS Joshua Humphreys and USNS Pecos well known for long term crews (so MSC is front loading the pilot for “success”). - The pilot leaves your life up to the whims of MSC captains. - An active duty sailor does an at sea billet followed by a couple of years in an ashore billet - not CIVMARs. - I’ve been here 15 years, am a 2nd mate Nav/OpsO and see this pilot turning MSC into a federal sweat shop. They will go from overstaffing to chronic shortages, especially when oil surpasses $70 barrel. No life to be had at MSC. ---
**Author:** ![Xavier6162](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/xavier6162/32/4842_2.png) [@Xavier6162](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Xavier6162)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 10:06pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/msc-proposed-civmar-crewing-model/47528/14 "2018-03-16T22:06:39Z")
There is a Monthly stipend for those who volunteer for the CONUS crew. Keep in mind this is just a proposal. Chances are high it will go nowhere. This would also be a change in working conditions and can’t be permitted without consenting the Union first. ---
**Author:** ![Skallywag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@Skallywag](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Skallywag)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 12:42am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/msc-proposed-civmar-crewing-model/47528/15 "2018-03-17T00:42:01Z")
At least they are doing it on a volunteer basis. ---
**Author:** ![johnny.dollar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f8ce5/32.png) [@johnny.dollar](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/johnny.dollar)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/msc-proposed-civmar-crewing-model/47528/16 "2018-03-17T16:18:40Z")
> [@Alan\_Newport](#): > > Then again I wish we could get to even 100% of our authorized manning. Considering the navy has 10-20x the people for doing many of the same tasks CivMAR and merchants ships do, I think being a few bodies short shouldn’t hurt too much. And the navy still resorts to civilian contractors to do much of O&M work that its sailors should be doing. Of course, recent events prove that 10x the people (on the bridge) still can’t do the tasks that 1-2 men do on most vessels sailing the seas. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Phoenix](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/capt_phoenix/32/281_2.png) [@Capt\_Phoenix](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Capt_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/msc-proposed-civmar-crewing-model/47528/17 "2018-03-19T16:57:07Z")
> [@Xavier6162](#): > > This would also be a change in working conditions and can’t be permitted without consenting the Union first. I thought only a minority of MSC vessels were union employees and they aren’t actually MSC civmars. ---
**Author:** ![LI\_Domer](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/li_domer/32/768_2.png) [@LI\_Domer](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/LI_Domer)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 5:54pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/msc-proposed-civmar-crewing-model/47528/18 "2018-03-19T17:54:29Z")
Still unionized, in a different membership group though. Instead of the Offshore membership group it’s the government employee one. ---
**Author:** ![Xavier6162](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/xavier6162/32/4842_2.png) [@Xavier6162](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Xavier6162)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 3:11am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/msc-proposed-civmar-crewing-model/47528/19 "2018-03-20T03:11:30Z")
MSC CIVMARs, paying members or not, are still represented by SIU. ---
**Author:** ![cali\_deckie](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/cali_deckie/32/73837_2.png) [@cali\_deckie](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/cali_deckie)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 12:29am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/msc-proposed-civmar-crewing-model/47528/20 "2018-03-21T00:29:32Z")
Wasnt MSC cracking down on homesteading last year? Now they are promoting it? I honestly don’t see how 5 weeks a year of training and leave will work for anyone. BTW Mates are MMP Engineers are MEBA unlicensed are SIU. [Next page](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/msc-proposed-civmar-crewing-model/47528.md?page=2)