# Large OSV Master to Master Inland AGT **URL:** \ **Category:** Professional Mariner Forum\ **Created:** [October 19, 2017, 1:20am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/large-osv-master-to-master-inland-agt/46401 "2017-10-19T01:20:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Capt\_Phoenix](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/capt_phoenix/32/281_2.png) [@Capt\_Phoenix](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Capt_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 12:23pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/large-osv-master-to-master-inland-agt/46401/104 "2017-10-20T12:23:58Z")
> [@Diesel](#): > > The one I can’t figure out is Articles. Any vessel over 50 tons…going to a non adjoining state…is supposed to sign articles…unless fishing or some other such where you share out. > > Fourchon to Tampa, Articles…Fourchon to Brazil, Articles Yes, that’s another one that is being violated by many, many boats. Also, look up official log books and their usage requirements. ---
**Author:** ![Diesel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@Diesel](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Diesel)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 12:28pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/large-osv-master-to-master-inland-agt/46401/105 "2017-10-20T12:28:46Z")
> [@Capt\_Phoenix](#): > > It was, andis still, possible to go straight from 2nd Mate to Master Unlimited by serving 12 months as Chief Mate. I don’t think so. I think the reach around…errr workaround, or why it may appear that way, is the simultaneous holding of a 1600 Master or Master Large OSV. In those cases you ARE holding a Management Level STCW. See below. [Mate-Chief Mate.pdf](https://forum.gcaptain.com/uploads/short-url/jO70VemP3jG88RQjQcVHOHn0J0f.pdf) (698.9 KB) ---
**Author:** ![Kennebec\_Captain](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/kennebec_captain/32/13_2.png) [@Kennebec\_Captain](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Kennebec_Captain)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 12:29pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/large-osv-master-to-master-inland-agt/46401/106 "2017-10-20T12:29:18Z")
> [@uniqueusername](#): > > The way I see it is if you were the only other “Master licensed” officer to cover the unlimited OSV, then you technically sailed as Chief Mate Don’t know about OSVs but deep-sea the Chief mate is not required to hold a master’s license. If say, the second mate holds a masters license and the chief mate does not the Chief mate is still going to be the officer that relieves the master in case of incapacity. If a person holds an unlimited master’s license but is sailing as Steward Utility that person is a Steward Utility , not the chief mate. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Phoenix](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/capt_phoenix/32/281_2.png) [@Capt\_Phoenix](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Capt_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 12:42pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/large-osv-master-to-master-inland-agt/46401/107 "2017-10-20T12:42:57Z")
> [@Diesel](#): > > I don’t think so. That’s interesting to see how they’re applying the rule too OSVs but I’m talking in general, not on OSVs. You can hold a 3M or 2M, sail for a year as Chief Mate on a cargo ship who’s COI allows for that, then upgrade to Master Unlimited. ---
**Author:** ![Diesel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@Diesel](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Diesel)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 12:59pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/large-osv-master-to-master-inland-agt/46401/108 "2017-10-20T12:59:14Z")
I’ll take your word for it. I’ve just no experience with someone pulling that off. Maybe JD can speak to implementation. ---
**Author:** ![Diesel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@Diesel](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Diesel)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 1:00pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/large-osv-master-to-master-inland-agt/46401/109 "2017-10-20T13:00:55Z")
> [@Capt\_Phoenix](#): > > Yes, that’s another one that is being violated by many, many boats. Also, look up official log books and their usage requirements. If you sign articles,guess What? You now need a discharge from th ship. You’re right, most have not even heard of Official Logbooks ---
**Author:** ![uniqueusername](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/43a26b/32.png) [@uniqueusername](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/uniqueusername)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 1:10pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/large-osv-master-to-master-inland-agt/46401/110 "2017-10-20T13:10:58Z")
Describing to you my situation sorry to get specific. 46 CFR 10.107 “Chief mate means the deck officer next in rank to the master and upon whom the command of the vessel will fall in the event of incapacity of the master.” Yes I was the chief mate ---
**Author:** ![uniqueusername](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/43a26b/32.png) [@uniqueusername](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/uniqueusername)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 1:21pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/large-osv-master-to-master-inland-agt/46401/111 "2017-10-20T13:21:52Z")
Also, how are you doubting the duties performed are that much different? It may not be as much work or as hard and time consuming but I guess OSV’s have no cargo, crew, or training to that crew that needs to be administered? Just because it’s mud and groceries being taken out to a rig it doesn’t mean the vessel doesn’t need a voyage plan, stability plan and a well trained crew. The Chief Mate is the deck boss and makes sure this is all done. Unless I’m missing something about the duties of a Chief Mate? I guess maybe none of this needs to be done on an OSV? I guess a VLCC is the only vessel that carries cargo then, good to know… ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Phoenix](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/capt_phoenix/32/281_2.png) [@Capt\_Phoenix](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Capt_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 2:00pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/large-osv-master-to-master-inland-agt/46401/112 "2017-10-20T14:00:55Z")
> [@uniqueusername](#): > > Also, how are you doubting the duties performed are that much different? Because I’ve done both jobs so I know what they both entail. The job of Chief Mate on an OSV is more similar to that of Captain on a cargo ship than it is to Chief Mate. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Phoenix](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/capt_phoenix/32/281_2.png) [@Capt\_Phoenix](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Capt_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 2:02pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/large-osv-master-to-master-inland-agt/46401/113 "2017-10-20T14:02:14Z")
> [@uniqueusername](#): > > Yes I was the chief mate Then you should be able to get Chief Mate sea time to use towards Master Unlimited. You still need to test though, and if you’re going for oceans you need the assessments and classes too. ---
**Author:** ![uniqueusername](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/43a26b/32.png) [@uniqueusername](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/uniqueusername)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 2:35pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/large-osv-master-to-master-inland-agt/46401/114 "2017-10-20T14:35:49Z")
So everyone agrees that I am entitled to Master Unlimited without testing. Glad I used this forum thanks! Will definitely come back for other mariner related questions! ---
**Author:** ![tugsailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a9adbd/32.png) [@tugsailor](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/tugsailor)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 2:49pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/large-osv-master-to-master-inland-agt/46401/115 "2017-10-20T14:49:46Z")
Again, just go take the test. The Master Inland AGT test is at a similar level of difficulty as the basic 100 ton test. To prepare, I brushed up on Rules of the Road, but nothing else. The exam is easy and only takes a few hours. There is no need and no point to spend weeks trying to scam your way into the license without taking the exam. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Phoenix](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/capt_phoenix/32/281_2.png) [@Capt\_Phoenix](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Capt_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 2:53pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/large-osv-master-to-master-inland-agt/46401/116 "2017-10-20T14:53:14Z")
> [@uniqueusername](#): > > So everyone agrees that I am entitled to Master Unlimited without testing. No, no one agrees with that. Yes you can apply directly for Master Unlimited Oceans, but **you will need to take the test**. If you want the STCW component you will need to take the classes and do the assessments as well. (You will also need to take the test if you only apply for Master Unlimited Inland.) ---
**Author:** ![jdcavo](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/jdcavo/32/108_2.png) [@jdcavo](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/jdcavo)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 3:20pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/large-osv-master-to-master-inland-agt/46401/117 "2017-10-20T15:20:54Z")
> [@Diesel](#): > > > [@Capt\_Phoenix](#): > > > > Also, there is NO legal requirement to have a COI that requires a “Chief Mate” in order to get sea time as Chief Mate. > > There sure as shit was until recently. That was the whole reason Chief Mate was as far as you could advance on OSV’S. Why people like myself, Anchorman, and anybody else had to get on something not operating under Subchapter L, if we wanted to advance. > > It has now been worded in CFR stating that the person next in line to the Master is defacto the “Chief Mate.” Now you have a whole separate dilemma of getting a special “letter” from your company stating you were “chief mate.” Because the COI just calls for a gaggle of Mate or Mates… > > -You had a Chief Mate discharge, that’s a horse of an entirely different hue. > > -I’m also sure they run your seatime against your discharges or seatime letters in MISLE. The oldest edition of the CFR I have available is 1996, and [that definition of “chief mate” is in there](https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-1996-title46-vol1/pdf/CFR-1996-title46-vol1-sec10-103.pdf) and is the same. It only appears to be recent as it really had little effect in the past. When OSVs were all less than 3,000 GT (1,600 GRT) there was no way to meet the requirement for an “unlimited” license to have at least 50% of service on vessels over 1,600 GRT. You could not be the chief mate on any vessel over 1,600 GRT without holding a license as chief mate unlimited. When OSVs became larger than 3,000 GT, that changed, but it was not until the 2013 rule change that formally authorized an OSV endorsement for 1,600 GRFT/3,000 GT or more that anyone took notice of the definition of chief mate and the service requirements for master unlimited, even though they had been there for a fairly long time. As far as checking COIs, you are mostly correct. NMC evaluators definitely go into “MISLE’ the Coast Guard’s database that includes vessel data. Note on almost all NMC checklists there is a note “check MISLE.” Will they always check the COI? Maybe not. If manning isn’t an issue for evaluating sea service in the application, probably not. But they will still be in the system to check things like vessel tonnage, and possibly whether the vessel is authorized for voyages on the routes described in the service letter.[https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-1996-title46-vol1/pdf/CFR-1996-title46-vol1-sec10-103.pdf](https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-1996-title46-vol1/pdf/CFR-1996-title46-vol1-sec10-103.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![jdcavo](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/jdcavo/32/108_2.png) [@jdcavo](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/jdcavo)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 3:28pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/large-osv-master-to-master-inland-agt/46401/118 "2017-10-20T15:28:05Z")
> [@Capt\_Phoenix](#): > > > [@Diesel](#): > > > > That was the whole reason Chief Mate was as far as you could advance on OSV’S. Why people like myself, Anchorman, and anybody else had to get on something not operating under Subchapter L, if we wanted to advance. > > That was only NMC policy, not an actual regulation. That’s **wrong** ( I was going to say it is “partially correct” but for you I made an exception to my usual practice of polite understatement). It wasn’t a regulation per se, but the combined effect of several regulations, see my post immediately above that explains the interaction of the tonnage requirements to qualify for “unlimited” endorsements without a tonnage limit (after 20 years I still cannot say or write that with a straight face) and the statutory limits on the tonnage of OSVs. ---
**Author:** ![jdcavo](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/jdcavo/32/108_2.png) [@jdcavo](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/jdcavo)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/large-osv-master-to-master-inland-agt/46401/119 "2017-10-20T15:37:48Z")
> [@AHTS\_Master](#): > > > [@Capt\_Phoenix](#): > > > > OSVs could issue discharges too… > > Hell no…that’s just more paperwork. If the Master did that, it would negate the possibility of an office withholding a service letter as a punitive measure… ---
**Author:** ![Diesel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@Diesel](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Diesel)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 3:38pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/large-osv-master-to-master-inland-agt/46401/120 "2017-10-20T15:38:28Z")
Yeah,Roger that JD. In an attempt to be brief…I confused myself (and everyone else). I meant to emphasize additional wording clarifying sea time credit for vessels without CM on the COI. Thanks as always in participating. ---
**Author:** ![jdcavo](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/jdcavo/32/108_2.png) [@jdcavo](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/jdcavo)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 3:45pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/large-osv-master-to-master-inland-agt/46401/122 "2017-10-20T15:45:06Z")
> [@AHTS\_Master](#): > > > [@Capt\_Phoenix](#): > > > > §14.307 Entries on certificate of discharge. > > > > (a) Each master or individual in charge of a vessel must, for each merchant mariner being discharged from the vessel, prepare a certificate of discharge and two copies… > > Maybe Mr. Cavo can explain why it’s not done in the Gulf. Not likely. I’m still wrestling with the 2nd Captain thing. ---
**Author:** ![jdcavo](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/jdcavo/32/108_2.png) [@jdcavo](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/jdcavo)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 3:48pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/large-osv-master-to-master-inland-agt/46401/123 "2017-10-20T15:48:50Z")
> [@Diesel](#): > > > [@Capt\_Phoenix](#): > > > > Since when? You can (and could) go straight from second mate to Master Unlimited with 12 months of sea time as Chief Mate. > > Okay found it. In the December 2013 Federal Register, directly prior to the CFR revisions. > > ![20171020_003846](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/gcaptain_maritime_forum/original/2X/9/97f01320c6494d356a8ae36b6d2bbef74ebc4fd0.jpg) > > Where the mariner holds a management-level > credential, and fills the position as > mate, and the position meets the > definition of chief mate found in > § 10.107, then that service will be > credited as chief mate. > > Maybe JD Cavo can weigh in on how it panned out in implementation. The wording is also found in the preamble to the CFR’S, I knew I wasn’t taking crazy pills. Way I read it, if you want CM time you need a Management Level STCW Comments in the “preamble” for the publication of a regulation cannot change the plain meaning of the regulation. They are used to discern intent when the meaning of the regulation is vague or unclear. If an agency says in rulemaking comments they intend to do one thing, but then write a regulation that clearly does something else, the regulation controls, not the intent. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Phoenix](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/capt_phoenix/32/281_2.png) [@Capt\_Phoenix](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Capt_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 4:01pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/large-osv-master-to-master-inland-agt/46401/125 "2017-10-20T16:01:42Z")
> [@jdcavo](#): > > It wasn’t a regulation per se, but the combined effect of several regulations, see my post immediately above > [@jdcavo](#): > > You could not be the chief mate on any vessel over 1,600 GRT without holding a license as chief mate unlimited. Except that was not necessarily true. There were, and still are, unlimited tonnage ships that don’t require a “Chief Mate”, they only require three “Mates”. [Previous page](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/large-osv-master-to-master-inland-agt/46401.md?page=5) [Next page](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/large-osv-master-to-master-inland-agt/46401.md?page=7)