# It Matters How a Mariner Learns Navigation **URL:** \ **Category:** Professional Mariner Forum\ **Created:** [November 15, 2020, 1:47pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/it-matters-how-a-mariner-learns-navigation/57470 "2020-11-15T13:47:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kennebec\_Captain](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/kennebec_captain/32/13_2.png) [@Kennebec\_Captain](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Kennebec_Captain)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 2:33pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/it-matters-how-a-mariner-learns-navigation/57470/41 "2020-11-21T14:33:38Z")
IMHO the key point is that a green third mate will not have confidence enough in their situational awareness to maneuver without the use of bird’s-eye-view provided by radar and/or ECDIS. A couple times I gotten panicky calls that the radar wasn’t working when we encounter the squid fleet. Their bright lights can be seen far away but the boats are too small to be seen by radar until close. Mate assumes the radar isn’t working and doesn’t think to just steer the ship on a track that will keep clear of the boats. ---
**Author:** ![Kennebec\_Captain](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/kennebec_captain/32/13_2.png) [@Kennebec\_Captain](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Kennebec_Captain)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 2:50pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/it-matters-how-a-mariner-learns-navigation/57470/42 "2020-11-21T14:50:53Z")
It’s also a matter of not knowing intuitively how much room a large ships needs to turn. To use the example of the single ship close on the stbd bow crossing stbd to port with fishing boats further away also on the stbd bow. The green third mate cannot determine just by looking if there is sufficient room to duck behind the ship to stbd and then back to port to clear the F/Vs. They are going to want to use the radar to get bearing and ranges or still more difficult; to use the trial maneuver function on the radar. ---
**Author:** ![MAK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@MAK](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/MAK)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 2:51pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/it-matters-how-a-mariner-learns-navigation/57470/43 "2020-11-21T14:51:50Z")
> [@freighterman1](#): > > How do you fight distraction? Ban phones. This is one of those things that sounds easy but it’s difficult to enforce since so much ships business gets done on a phone these days. If you’re the one setting the rules you usually need to have a phone with you, and that makes it difficult to enforce down the chain. Set a ‘window timer’ that gives a soft noise. Every time it goes off you look out the window. In close waters I have mine set for 4 minutes, in open waters 10. A soft noise, not another godawful beep. I use a soft gong. It’s easy enough to just tell people to look out the window but they are understandably paying attention to the better tools. If you have it on a timer it becomes a habit. ---
**Author:** ![freighterman1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/freighterman1/32/11176_2.png) [@freighterman1](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/freighterman1)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 2:56pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/it-matters-how-a-mariner-learns-navigation/57470/44 "2020-11-21T14:56:14Z")
> [@Lee\_Shore](#): > > You may be forgetting small fishing boats such as gillnetter and trawler crews falling asleep at the wheel The interesting thing is when you look at the data Transport Canada has on those groundings, they are frequent (more so in the past) but you don’t see mariners dying because of it. The same god that protects drunks seemingly protects fishermen, at least on the IP. The fishing fatalities came from the smaller Canadian fishing boats, often skiffs. And from back in the Canadian salmon fishing heyday, sadly long gone now. As you say, up until the late 1990s American fishing boat groundings on the IP were so frequent the Canadians put no great importance on it. The skipper would call the CCG, tell him he was aground, and all the CCG would ask was if he needed a line from the cutter to tow him off. No report needed from the boat. Of course, that was about the same time the first iteration of the pilotage waiver system came in, to stop all the nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![SeaEagle](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/seaeagle/32/17788_2.png) [@SeaEagle](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/SeaEagle)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 3:58pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/it-matters-how-a-mariner-learns-navigation/57470/45 "2020-11-21T15:58:23Z")
Perhaps I am too old fashioned. Never had a phone on the bridge, except a sat phone that was rarely used. We had windows all around and a decent radar or two. You point the vessel where you want it to go. Agree, the small vessels around can be problematic, particularly trawlers and fisherman. They are very tired and overworked, and a giant pain in the ass at times. The rookie boaters are much worse. Some don’t show up on the radar. Look out the frigging window people. It ain’t rocket science, quit trying to make it so. ---
**Author:** ![Kennebec\_Captain](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/kennebec_captain/32/13_2.png) [@Kennebec\_Captain](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Kennebec_Captain)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 5:13pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/it-matters-how-a-mariner-learns-navigation/57470/46 "2020-11-21T17:13:56Z")
> [@SeaEagle](#): > > Look out the frigging window people. It ain’t rocket science, quit trying to make it so. According to Col John Boyd it’s OODA; Observe - Orient - Decide -Act. Just observing is not enough, have to be able to orient. That’s what new mates can’t do. ---
**Author:** ![SeaEagle](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/seaeagle/32/17788_2.png) [@SeaEagle](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/SeaEagle)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 6:00pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/it-matters-how-a-mariner-learns-navigation/57470/47 "2020-11-21T18:00:02Z")
That’s why if you see potential talent stand beside them, but let them do the work. Step in if you have to, but be there for them. Who else is going to teach them? Mr Boyd has a decent idea, but it boils down to hands on training. I would like to think you spent your precious time working with a future bridge partner. Someone worked with you as a young man, pay it forward. ---
**Author:** ![Lee\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Lee\_Shore](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Lee_Shore)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 6:06pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/it-matters-how-a-mariner-learns-navigation/57470/48 "2020-11-21T18:06:26Z")
The habit of scanning all of the instruments on the panel in a pattern and avoid fixation is hammered into student pilots until it becomes automatic. I haven’t seen much evidence that this concept has been adopted on bridges with the plethora of navigation data available. At least not by the time I retired. ---
**Author:** ![Kennebec\_Captain](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/kennebec_captain/32/13_2.png) [@Kennebec\_Captain](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Kennebec_Captain)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 7:20pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/it-matters-how-a-mariner-learns-navigation/57470/49 "2020-11-21T19:20:54Z")
Be my guess that Boyd being a pilot would agree. ---
**Author:** ![tugsailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a9adbd/32.png) [@tugsailor](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/tugsailor)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 9:27pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/it-matters-how-a-mariner-learns-navigation/57470/50 "2020-11-21T21:27:47Z")
I started out navigating by eye in small boats (with just a magnetic compass in a wooden box and a wrist watch in the fog). There were no charts, nor any chart plotting. The value of small boat experience, particularly being in actual command of a small boat, is grossly under appreciated. Being able to navigate and maneuver by eye without any electronics is an essential skill. My first electronic aid to navigation was an echo sounder. A great source of position information when transiting over broken bottom. It’s still the most reliable piece of navigational electronics, as it is not dependent upon external radio signals or atmospheric conditions. It cannot be spoofed. I encounter very few mates that know how to navigate with an echo sounder. Invariably, those that do are former fishermen. ---
**Author:** ![Lee\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Lee\_Shore](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Lee_Shore)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 10:42pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/it-matters-how-a-mariner-learns-navigation/57470/51 "2020-11-21T22:42:11Z")
I’m a true believer in the benefits of small craft handling and sail training for ship drivers. Ask a green mate who hasn’t had that experience what the true wind direction is based on the apparent wind indicator when you’re steaming at 15 kts and you’ll get some interesting answers. ---
**Author:** ![CROSSBOLT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/53a042/32.png) [@CROSSBOLT](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/CROSSBOLT)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2020, 12:04am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/it-matters-how-a-mariner-learns-navigation/57470/52 "2020-11-22T00:04:28Z")
More than one sea mount or pinnacle has been used to either prove a dead reckon or confirm a celestial fix or just to add another “proof” to the transit plan… ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Phoenix](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/capt_phoenix/32/281_2.png) [@Capt\_Phoenix](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Capt_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2020, 12:27am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/it-matters-how-a-mariner-learns-navigation/57470/53 "2020-11-22T00:27:52Z")
> [@MAK](#): > > Set a ‘window timer’ that gives a soft noise. I’m going to have to remember that trick. ---
**Author:** ![Lee\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Lee\_Shore](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Lee_Shore)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2020, 12:32am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/it-matters-how-a-mariner-learns-navigation/57470/54 "2020-11-22T00:32:33Z")
Sometimes discovery is made the hard way. > **[The Navy is retiring a submarine that miraculously survived a terrifying...](https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2016/11/08/the-navy-is-retiring-a-submarine-that-miraculously-survived-a-terrifying-collision/)** > > Sailors bid farewell Friday to the attack submarine that survived a violent 2005 collision and would go on to serve another decade. ---
**Author:** ![Jughead](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/jughead/32/4257_2.png) [@Jughead](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Jughead)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2020, 8:17am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/it-matters-how-a-mariner-learns-navigation/57470/55 "2020-11-22T08:17:00Z")
> [@MAK](#): > > Set a ‘window timer’ that gives a soft noise. Every time it goes off you look out the window. I don’t have any windows. I have a windswept poop deck, a wheel, compass, throttles and wind and sounder gauges. The chart’s below deck as are the radar, GPS, AIS, radios etc. I can be there or on deck depending on the situation and it works OK. Even on deck in a sailing ship it requires regular changing side to side on deck to be able to see clearly all round. And phones are banned unless needed for ship’s business. ---
**Author:** ![Jughead](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/jughead/32/4257_2.png) [@Jughead](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Jughead)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2020, 8:26am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/it-matters-how-a-mariner-learns-navigation/57470/56 "2020-11-22T08:26:00Z")
> [@Lee\_Shore](#): > > Sometimes discovery is made the hard way. I have a naval friend who used to be in the RN submarine service. He told me a story of his nuclear powered sub hitting an uncharted undersea mountain at 30 odd knots as she made a high speed Atlantic crossing. Fortunately it was just a slight glancing touch of the keel on the peak and the sub bounced up and over without physical damage although there were a few soiled underpants. There’s probably no newspaper reports of that one. I should also admit I suggested a name “Two Prop Rock” for a pinnacle I hit in the mostly unsurveyed Gulf of Carpentaria in N. Australia. The sounder trace showed just one ping at my ship’s draught then back to the previous level of 7 metres. Many of the rocks there are named after naval patrol boats which ‘discovered’ them … the hard way. My rock is simply on the chart now as “Reported 1983” which is disappointing for my eternal fame but perhaps they want someone else to hit it and confirm its existence. I later discovered a copy of Matthew Flinders’ chart of the area has included a dotted line of him suspecting something there (the modern chart was blank) which was noticeable a while after I hit as the tide turned and created visible surface turbulence. I had crossed at slack tide and mirror-calm water and so nothing to see. Flinders had sailed through the same passage to the north of Bickerton Island on the w side of the gulf (see Plate XIV in the linked collection below) but further north than me. I would have liked to use his chart but even without it, his data should have been reflected on the modern chart. Bad hydrographer! P.S. Fortunately my ship had three props. > **[Collections | Australian National Maritime Museum](https://collections.sea.museum/collections;jsessionid=B6D210BDB887A321390771F8E8409698)** > > Search the National Maritime Collection online. ---
**Author:** ![Sirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/74df32/32.png) [@Sirk](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Sirk)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2020, 10:35am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/it-matters-how-a-mariner-learns-navigation/57470/57 "2020-11-22T10:35:46Z")
> [@Kennebec\_Captain](#): > > According to Col John Boyd it’s OODA; Observe - Orient - Decide -Act. Just observing is not enough, have to be able to orient. That’s what new mates can’t do. OODA loop or more unconventional “destruction and creation” theory? All these advanced situation awareness and progressive problem solving techniques are quite popular and fancy but do not mix “maritime officers” with “marines” or a “marine pilot” with the “fighter pilot”. Top Gun was cool but our job is real and requires some different skills. Teamwork and cooperation also with your “opponent” is crucial. There are many good Maritime Training Centers but I recommend Aboa Mare, it may not be cool & fancy but it will explain well what BRM is all about. We do not have to reinvent the wheel. > **[Bridge Resource Management course - Aboa Mare](https://aboamare.fi/human-element-training/brm-course)** > > The bridge resource management course is intended for experienced nautical officers and others with responsible duties in navigation work. ---
**Author:** ![Kennebec\_Captain](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/kennebec_captain/32/13_2.png) [@Kennebec\_Captain](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Kennebec_Captain)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2020, 11:36am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/it-matters-how-a-mariner-learns-navigation/57470/58 "2020-11-22T11:36:26Z")
The context here is to answer the question: Why is saying “look out the window” insufficient? Assume that Boyd is known and answer in one sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Lee\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Lee\_Shore](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Lee_Shore)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2020, 12:25pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/it-matters-how-a-mariner-learns-navigation/57470/59 "2020-11-22T12:25:33Z")
I’ll bite. Because without a structural framework, it’s vague, simplistic and as cringe worthy as the ubiquitous and redundant “be careful”. ---
**Author:** ![Kennebec\_Captain](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/kennebec_captain/32/13_2.png) [@Kennebec\_Captain](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Kennebec_Captain)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2020, 12:58pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/it-matters-how-a-mariner-learns-navigation/57470/60 "2020-11-22T12:58:16Z")
What about this thread? > [@Connections From Hammond's "The Mind of War" - Col John Boyd](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/connections-from-hammonds-the-mind-of-war-col-john-boyd/57412): > > This is one of my favorite books. Focus on operations not business or finance. A useful read for management level mariners. The USMC manual [MCD1 - “Warfighting”](https://www.amazon.com/WARFIGHTING-Marine-Corps-Doctrinal-Publication/dp/1557423091?tag=gcaptaincom-20) follows Boyd very closely. Books are sort of like nodes in network, some are more or less dead ends while other have many connections like the trunk of a tree branching out. This book branches off in many directions. I ran into an article the other day about the computer language LISP (“List Processing Language”) and th… @Lee_Shore - I think I missed your point. You’re saying be careful is no more helpful then “look out the window”? Or the other way round actually. [Previous page](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/it-matters-how-a-mariner-learns-navigation/57470.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/it-matters-how-a-mariner-learns-navigation/57470.md?page=4)