# Impassioned Call for saving the Merchant Marine **URL:** \ **Category:** Professional Mariner Forum\ **Created:** [September 15, 2020, 9:21pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733 "2020-09-15T21:21:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![john](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/john/32/5_2.png) [@john](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/john)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2020, 8:33pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/103 "2020-09-21T20:33:55Z")
> [@Alan\_Newport](#): > > We would be pushing into the SCS, and when you’re on the offensive you muster all your forces together, you don’t attack piecemeal. This is convoys vs lone merchantmen - strength in numbers. We’re going to have a fleet composition mismatch because we have a mission mismatch. Yes, Isn’t that exactly what I said when I wrote that you guys “don’t think like that. They think of the small highly concentrated battles between capital warships.”? > [@Alan\_Newport](#): > > I know you like to rail against the _Zumwalts_ , I don’t like to rail against the Zumwalts. I don’t like anything about the Zumwalts (except Elmo himself). I don’t like writing about them, I don’t like the look of them, I don’t like paying for them. > [@Alan\_Newport](#): > > The FFG-X program sets a lot right that once went wrong; they’ll be relatively cheap, relatively capable, and relatively numerous. True, it’s getting better, that is _ **if** _ they can stay on budget and don’t make a ton of design changes after they start cutting steel. (which is a BIG if) ---
**Author:** ![ombugge](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/ombugge/32/11217_2.png) [@ombugge](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/ombugge)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2020, 8:40pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/104 "2020-09-21T20:40:18Z")
Here is the plan for a “future naval force” as seen by Mark Esber: [https://www.naval-technology.com/news/us-defence-secretary-outlines-plans-for-future-naval-force/#:~:text=US%20Secretary%20of%20Defence%20Mark,355%20manned%20and%20unmanned%20ships](https://www.naval-technology.com/news/us-defence-secretary-outlines-plans-for-future-naval-force/#:~:text=US%20Secretary%20of%20Defence%20Mark,355%20manned%20and%20unmanned%20ships). ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Newport](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/alan_newport/32/3067_2.png) [@Alan\_Newport](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Alan_Newport)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2020, 9:05pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/105 "2020-09-21T21:05:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, Isn’t that exactly what I said when I wrote that you guys “don’t think like that. They think of the small highly concentrated battles between capital warships.”? You framed it as a negative when taken in context, stating (without merit) that “the Admirals” want to build more $8B ships and fewer inexpensive ones, and that we’re just looking to land cushy defense contractor jobs. > [@](#): > > I don’t like to rail against the Zumwalts. I don’t like anything about the Zumwalts (except Elmo himself). I don’t like writing about them, I don’t like the look of them, I don’t like paying for them. Then stop! It sounds a lot like crying over spilled milk. The R&D and acquisition costs of the Zumwalts are (mostly) paid for. Was it a bad purchase? Yeah. But we can’t really return them either. We’re trying to make lemonade with our lemons. > [@](#): > > True, it’s getting better, that is _ **if** _ they can stay on budget and don’t make a ton of design changes after they start cutting steel. (which is a BIG if) I’m hopeful too, but fiddling with the design mid-construction is a naval tradition that dates back to at least the Civil War and the successors to _Monitor_. One of our better decisions was to use standardized designs during WWII that were good enough, but not chasing perfection. Of course FDR was a Navy man and overrode his admirals from time to time. ---
**Author:** ![Steamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Steamer](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Steamer)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2020, 9:35pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/106 "2020-09-21T21:35:46Z")
> [@Alan\_Newport](#): > > We’re trying to make lemonade with our lemons. Stop picking lemons. ---
**Author:** ![john](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/john/32/5_2.png) [@john](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/john)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2020, 10:20pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/107 "2020-09-21T22:20:05Z")
> [@Alan\_Newport](#): > > You framed it as a negative when taken in context, stating (without merit) that “the Admirals” want to build more $8B ships and fewer inexpensive ones, and that we’re just looking to land cushy defense contractor jobs. Oh yes and you wanted a source. My source is [Chuck Spinney](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_C._Spinney) and [Peirre Sprey](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Sprey), both leaders of the Military Reform Movement (alongside [John Boyd](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Boyd_(military_strategist))) of the early eighties. ![image](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/gcaptain_maritime_forum/original/3X/a/a/aa2e6e04fac2c65fdb7db6d8011feba03a0f7df6.jpeg) You can look up their videos and papers but here’s a start. _**fast forward to 1:23 (he nails the Admirals at 1:24:15) on this video**_: [https://youtu.be/GCkEFqIKeao](https://youtu.be/GCkEFqIKeao) More from Spinney: [![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/gcaptain_maritime_forum/original/3X/7/c/7c62882942c0fc31f5795c4fd462447063386bc0.jpeg "Trump's Pentagon Budget Time Bomb") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2FUEwxM4rI) Spey: [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE7NDEYB5yU) The flag officer corruption and need for “bigger, faster, higher” planes (and ships) is detailed in his biography: Boyd: The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War [https://smile.amazon.com/dp/0316796883/ref=cm\_sw\_r\_cp\_api\_i\_sAsAFbHRKS284](https://smile.amazon.com/dp/0316796883/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_sAsAFbHRKS284?tag=gcaptaincom-20) > [@Alan\_Newport](#): > > Then stop! It sounds a lot like crying over spilled milk. The R&D and acquisition costs of the Zumwalts are (mostly) paid for. Was it a bad purchase? Yeah. But we can’t really return them either. We’re trying to make lemonade with our lemons. Ok I’ll stop if someone stands up and gives the public a heart felt apology after investigating the real reason for the crazy cost overruns and after canceling the F/A-XX Hornet replacement program which the pilots don’t want. Also… no, it’s not “almost paid for”. It hasn’t been “paid for” at all. It was purchased with government bonds which we will be paying out interest on for years before they are due. And even if we had paid in cash, as Spinney points out in the second video the costs ramp up crazy at the end of then program so we need to drag that F’n last one out of shipyard now and sink the MF’r… not shug our shoulders, say it’s “better than nothing”, and wait for the final bill to arrive. But of course you don’t have any salvage tugs left so I don’t know how you would even be able to drag that thing out? Since you don’t have a salvage tug and the MSC mariners you gave your old ones too are WAY more pissed at the navy right now than I ever have been… I’d also be up for burning all three at the dock but, of course, considering they cost $23B they probably are built with megabuxite or some other expensive shit that burns money… and then all your other big $ ships would burn too and we’d all be screwed because you do not have a single fireboat to extinguish the fire with. ---
**Author:** ![SeaEagle](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/seaeagle/32/17788_2.png) [@SeaEagle](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/SeaEagle)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2020, 10:53pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/108 "2020-09-21T22:53:12Z")
Was just thinking about Boyd as I was reading these comments. Sharp fellow and a great story. ---
**Author:** ![SwampAssassin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/858c86/32.png) [@SwampAssassin](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/SwampAssassin)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 1:01am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/109 "2020-09-22T01:01:39Z")
If only there was a federal administration whose job it is to advocate for the merchant marine ---
**Author:** ![Anonnymouus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/anonnymouus/32/69293_2.png) [@Anonnymouus](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Anonnymouus)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 7:27pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/110 "2020-10-02T19:27:09Z")
Hello. Sorry if this is going to sound like another suggestion you don’t need but: Why don’t you start a GoFundMe page or start a petition on Change dot org? Or start a registered charity or something like that? There’s some kids (and grown-ups too) with videos on YouTube giving good advice on where to start if funding is your problem. Could be that some bored sailors who are stuck at home can help you with this. A book that may help you is “The End Of Impossible” by Allan Savory and Andrew Fynn. Have a great day. ---
**Author:** ![john](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/john/32/5_2.png) [@john](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/john)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 8:33pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/111 "2020-10-02T20:33:31Z")
> [@Anonnymouus](#): > > Why don’t you start a GoFundMe page or start a petition on Change dot org? Why don’t you start one and then we can promote it? That’s the issue, we are already overworked and understaffed just trying to get the news out. Doing a campaign effectively like that is a full time job. And… have you done a gofundme page? I’ve done two. Once you get above the level of money that would make a difference then their lawyers call and check the story and look for conflicting interest. They would have to go through every post and article I’ve made and question us about it. It’s very difficult for for-profit companies (like gCaptain) to raise funds that way but it’s simple for individuals (like you) to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Anonnymouus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/anonnymouus/32/69293_2.png) [@Anonnymouus](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Anonnymouus)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 9:20pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/112 "2020-10-02T21:20:52Z")
That would make the US competitive at the level of the Asian countries who exploit labor. ---
**Author:** ![Anonnymouus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/anonnymouus/32/69293_2.png) [@Anonnymouus](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Anonnymouus)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 9:50pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/113 "2020-10-02T21:50:37Z")
Hello, thanks for the reply. That’s an idea. 🙂 No, I have never done a gofundme page but perhaps you can find some college tech savvy American Citizen with a love for the Merchant Marine who would love the experience on the resume, working as an intern or a student at GCaptain. (edit: sorry, you said they can’t be attached to your company). Sounds better than attending online classes learning theory but not learning much in the way of practice. If you think it’s doable, I’m sure you already know of someone that can do the job, who has the energy to follow through. It’s a matter of weighing the pros and cons. What would be the statement of purpose for this GoFundMe initiative? [Previous page](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733.md?page=5)