# Impassioned Call for saving the Merchant Marine **URL:** \ **Category:** Professional Mariner Forum\ **Created:** [September 15, 2020, 9:21pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733 "2020-09-15T21:21:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![john](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/john/32/5_2.png) [@john](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/john)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 8:34pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/82 "2020-09-18T20:34:20Z")
Just for reiteration: > [@john](#): > > $4.5 BILLION in funds to build 160 bulk carriers and 40 container ships. The Koreans are building 200 ships for $4.5 billion. Meanwhile, we have a destroyer (which [doesn’t even work](https://www.businessinsider.com/destroyer-zumwalts-big-guns-lack-ammo-and-navy-may-just-scrap-them-2018-11)) which [costs twice that](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-27/navy-s-7-8-billion-destroyer-now-due-for-delivery-5-years-late)… and we are still building two more! It doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure out that there are some HUGE opportunities for improvement in our shipyards. Which leads us to the simple answer to your question as to why our ships are so expensive to build. The biggest reason for the costs is that our shipyards are not designed to meet the needs of commercial clients… they are designed to meet the whims of congress and the pentagon. [![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/gcaptain_maritime_forum/original/3X/d/b/db763eb74b1f5b8f8edc2ae81d2ca4f350d3bde3.jpeg "The Founder Official Trailer #1 (2016) - Michael Keaton Movie HD") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX2uz2XYkbo) Fast forward to 1:28 in the trailer for “The Founder” which is the moment in life when McDonalds founder Ray Kroc started making REAL money,. The line is: “(Mr Kroc) you are not in the hamburger business. You are in the real estate businesses.” Well our American shipyards are not in the business of building ships. They are in the defense contracts business. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Newport](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/alan_newport/32/3067_2.png) [@Alan\_Newport](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Alan_Newport)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 8:50pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/83 "2020-09-18T20:50:30Z")
> [@john](#): > > Been there, done that, got the tshirt. Ok, not that show specifically but we did get the Daily Show to do a special with our friends at Maritime Executive. Didn’t change anything. I went ahead and tracked down this video; wow, it didn’t change anything because it didn’t do you any favors: > **[Food vs. Cash - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart | Comedy Central US](https://www.cc.com/video/m52tkn/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-food-vs-cash)** > > Jessica Williams investigates America's Food for Peace program. Radio Shack had heritage, Oldsmobile had heritage, it didn’t save them. That was loser argument the Maritime Executive guy made. I buy into a lot of what you are saying. If you want to make an assault on the media though, really, what you need to do is get a war council together of all the affected players and hire a good PR firm. You need branding and a message, and it has to be simple, something like “US Merchant Marine: American Jobs, American Defense”. And then everyone has to be on message - and I don’t envy anyone trying to herd those cats. ---
**Author:** ![ombugge](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/ombugge/32/11217_2.png) [@ombugge](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/ombugge)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 8:50pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/84 "2020-09-18T20:50:58Z")
So does the Deutz and Lamborghini (I believe, although I have no first hand experience with either) ---
**Author:** ![shipengr](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/shipengr/32/485_2.png) [@shipengr](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/shipengr)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 8:53pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/85 "2020-09-18T20:53:48Z")
> [@john](#): > > but none of them have passed into law. Right, nothing as really changed be cause we haven’t really changed anything. > [@john](#): > > The biggest reason for the costs is that our shipyards are not designed to meet the needs of commercial clients > [@john](#): > > “(Mr Kroc) you are not in the hamburger business. You are in the real estate businesses.” > > Well our American shipyards are not in the business of building ships. They are in the defense contracts business. And there is the rub. US shipyards need to be in the real estate business. They simply don’t have the real estate to build 200 ships in any reasonable amount of time. Even Mr. Mercogliano points out in his article about Philly’s dry dock and the NSMV that they put out 30 ships in 24 years. We’ll be lucky see the first two NSMV’s in the next 3 years. When Maersk put the order in for 18 Triple E’s DSME had 5-6 in progress at one time, in addition to over 30 other hulls at the same time. Where the heck are any US yards going to find that expansion capacity? Our shipyards aren’t just not designed to meet the needs of commercial clients, they are not designed to meet the needs of large scale shipbuilding. (And now I’m late for work) ---
**Author:** ![john](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/john/32/5_2.png) [@john](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/john)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 9:13pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/86 "2020-09-18T21:13:30Z")
> [@shipengr](#): > > They simply don’t have the real estate to build 200 ships in any reasonable amount of time. There are those peaky assumptions again. Why are we assuming they have to be built at an existing shipyard? Are you an expert in large scale industrial real-estate? Who says that jones act ships have to be built in the continental US? Isn’t Puerto Rico surrounded by water? How much undeveloped waterfront real estate does Alaska have? Enough to build 200 ships? These are exactly the types of assumptions I’m talking about which stall discussions. I have no idea if building 200 ships in Alaska is feasible but I do know that I can’t rule it out right now without making some assumptions. And I do know that someone who is working on plans right now for a shipyard in PR. I was at a Jones Act working group put on by the usual suspects in Manhattan a few years ago and this question came up. I asked “who here has commercial real estate experience?” Nobody answered so I said “one of the biggest real estate firms in the world is just a few blocks from here. Should I go knock on their door and invite them for lunch?”. Everyone laughed… but I wasn’t joking. Instead of even picking up the phone they all moved to other problems. ---
**Author:** ![john](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/john/32/5_2.png) [@john](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/john)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 9:17pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/87 "2020-09-18T21:17:25Z")
> [@Alan\_Newport](#): > > it didn’t do you any favors: Why do you think I didn’t share the link? 🤣 > [@Alan\_Newport](#): > > what you need to do is get a war council together of all the affected players and hire a good PR firm. You need branding and a message, and it has to be simple, something like “US Merchant Marine: American Jobs, American Defense”. And then everyone has to be on message - and I don’t envy anyone trying to herd those cats. Love that idea! I wonder how much it cost to hire a top PR firm for a project like this? ---
**Author:** ![SeaEagle](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/seaeagle/32/17788_2.png) [@SeaEagle](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/SeaEagle)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 11:01pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/88 "2020-09-18T23:01:42Z")
Send Alan the bill. He is on board and has ideas. Good luck John. ---
**Author:** ![Lee\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Lee\_Shore](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Lee_Shore)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 11:08pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/89 "2020-09-18T23:08:36Z")
> [@Alan\_Newport](#): > > “US Merchant Marine: American Jobs, American Defense” Awesome branding - the AJAD initiative ---
**Author:** ![SeaEagle](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/seaeagle/32/17788_2.png) [@SeaEagle](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/SeaEagle)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 11:24pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/90 "2020-09-18T23:24:20Z")
Alan would like that because it begins with an A. ---
**Author:** ![DutchHarBro](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/dutchharbro/32/6152_2.png) [@DutchHarBro](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/DutchHarBro)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2020, 3:22am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/91 "2020-09-20T03:22:43Z")
@john [This](https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5mcmVlZG9tYWlucmFkaW8uY29tL0ZyZWVkb21haW5fUmFkaW9fUG9kY2FzdF81LnhtbA/episode/aHR0cHM6Ly9jZG4uZnJlZWRvbWFpbnJhZGlvLmNvbS9GRFJfNDY5NV9BX3dvcmxkX3dpdGhvdXRfc2hpcHNfaW50ZXJ2aWV3Lm1wMw?sa=X&ved=0CAUQkfYCahcKEwigtf_J4_brAhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQBQ) is well worth the listen. ---
**Author:** ![KPChief](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/kpchief/32/26_2.png) [@KPChief](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/KPChief)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2020, 12:24pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/92 "2020-09-20T12:24:11Z")
One mans philosopher > Philosopher Stefan Molyneux interviews a sea captain about the collapse of international shipping under COVID-19! Is another mans > `Stefan Basil Molyneux is a Canadian far-right, white nationalist, white supremacist, banned YouTuber and podcaster, who is best known for his promotion of conspiracy theories, scientific racism, eugenics, and racist views. [Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Molyneux)` ---
**Author:** ![john](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/john/32/5_2.png) [@john](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/john)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2020, 11:44pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/93 "2020-09-20T23:44:09Z")
FYI Today I was invited to speak about these issues on one of the US Navy podcasts. Here’s the link: [http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2020/09/the-neglected-american-merchant-fleet.html?m=1](http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2020/09/the-neglected-american-merchant-fleet.html?m=1) ---
**Author:** ![john](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/john/32/5_2.png) [@john](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/john)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2020, 12:30am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/94 "2020-09-21T00:30:34Z")
Ok Guys, here’s the next video in this series: ARTICLE LINK: [Marine Finance And The Power Of Dumb Questions](https://gcaptain.com/watch-marine-finance-and-the-power-of-dumb-questions/) VIDEO: [![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/gcaptain_maritime_forum/original/3X/0/3/03bdaff31f1e1d26805c0059cf21c0f47a352b5d.jpeg "A story about the power of dumb questions.") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-KPxR_OR8Q) ---
**Author:** ![ombugge](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/ombugge/32/11217_2.png) [@ombugge](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/ombugge)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2020, 12:33pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/96 "2020-09-21T12:33:45Z")
Apparently the US Navy need MORE ships to keep up with the Chinese in number of ships on the water: [https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2020/09/16/amid-pacific-naval-arms-race-us-defense-chief-pledges-billions-more-for-ships/#:~:text=WASHINGTON%20—%20U.S.%20Defense%20Secretary%20Mark,that%20funding%20will%20come%20from](https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2020/09/16/amid-pacific-naval-arms-race-us-defense-chief-pledges-billions-more-for-ships/#:~:text=WASHINGTON%20%E2%80%94%20U.S.%20Defense%20Secretary%20Mark,that%20funding%20will%20come%20from). I don’t know if “number of ships” are the best measurement of naval power, but maybe the Admirals think so (??) The politicians that approve the funds to build them may think that China is like the Soviet Union (both Communists)? If they think China will collapse under the might of the $$$, like the Soviet Union, they may have to think again. ---
**Author:** ![john](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/john/32/5_2.png) [@john](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/john)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2020, 3:01pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/97 "2020-09-21T15:01:45Z")
> [@ombugge](#): > > I don’t know if “number of ships” are the best measurement of naval power, but maybe the Admirals think so (??) No no, you got this backward. This article does not mention what the Admirals want, it is an article telling you what the U.S. Defense Secretary Mark Esper wants. The Admirals don’t answer to anyone but flag officers in the rest of the pentagon and the big defense contractors who hire them after they retire. Esper doesn’t answer to the defense contractors, he answers to the White House. There is a major battle going on inside Washington right now and this battle is part of the reason I made this video. The Admirals want fewer ships but they want these ships to be more expensive. What they really want to do is build more ships like the $8 billion USS Zumwalt and fewer inexpensive ships. The chief proponent of shipbuilding inside the White House is Peter Navarro, who wrote a book that concludes [that a war with China is inevitable](https://amzn.to/3ciwcJA) and we need to prepare. China realizes that the Pacific Ocean is enormous so it’s building hundreds of inexpensive destroyers and missile ships to cover the vast expanse of the western pacific and south china sea. The Chinese navy talks about things like swarm tactics and decentralized operations. They are basically preparing to fight a guerilla war in the pacific. The Navy doesn’t think like that. They think of the small highly concentrated battles between capital warships. More importantly, they think too much about post-retirement jobs as big $ defense industry consultants. Defense contractors don’t like the white house plan. They aren’t set up for it. The white house plan requires more yards and more of an assembly line type production schedule to turn out more ships at a greatly reduced cost. That’s not how yards today operate. Yards today are like the modern artist who spends years handcrafting a mug that works the same as a wall-mart mug but looks a lot cooler and costs 100 times the price. More yards mean more competition for existing yards. Further, the yards have no clue how to build ships faster and on tight production timelines so they would have to rethink everything and rebuild their operations from scrap… rebuilding anything from scratch comes with a lot of risk (also a lot of potential rewards but fear is a stronger emotion than greed). I agree with the “number of ships” doesn’t mean much (e.g. we have 20 LCS’s and they are total pigs - and we also have one Zumwalt which is also a pig)… what matters is being agile and able to defend the country in an uncertain future. For that, I don’t know if we need “over 350 ships,” but I do know we need to end the era of single ships costing $8B a pop, and get back to the fundamentals of seapower. ---
**Author:** ![ombugge](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/ombugge/32/11217_2.png) [@ombugge](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/ombugge)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2020, 4:06pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/98 "2020-09-21T16:06:49Z")
> [@john](#): > > but I do know we need to end the era of single ships costing $8B a pop, And have a great big target painted on it? ---
**Author:** ![Steamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Steamer](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Steamer)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/99 "2020-09-21T16:49:23Z")
> [@john](#): > > They think of the small highly concentrated battles between capital warships. More importantly, they think too much about post-retirement jobs as big $ defense industry consultants. World War One mentality with a 2020 financial chaser. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Newport](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/alan_newport/32/3067_2.png) [@Alan\_Newport](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Alan_Newport)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2020, 6:58pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/100 "2020-09-21T18:58:24Z")
> [@](#): > > The Admirals want fewer ships but they want these ships to be more expensive. What they really want to do is build more ships like the $8 billion USS Zumwalt and fewer inexpensive ships. [citation needed] > [@](#): > > China realizes that the Pacific Ocean is enormous so it’s building hundreds of inexpensive destroyers and missile ships to cover the vast expanse of the western pacific and south china sea. > > The Chinese navy talks about things like swarm tactics and decentralized operations. They are basically preparing to fight a guerilla war in the pacific. > > The Navy doesn’t think like that. They think of the small highly concentrated battles between capital warships. China doesn’t need destroyers to defend the SCS, they need them to project power into the Indian Ocean. They have plenty of land-based assets to attack shipping inside the nine-dash line. We would be pushing into the SCS, and when you’re on the offensive you muster all your forces together, you don’t attack piecemeal. This is convoys vs lone merchantmen - strength in numbers. We’re going to have a fleet composition mismatch because we have a mission mismatch. I know you like to rail against the _Zumwalts_, and I won’t pretend they weren’t a tremendous waste of money, but that money has been spent (the last one is almost ready to be commissioned). The FFG-X program sets a lot right that once went wrong; they’ll be relatively cheap, relatively capable, and relatively numerous. Hopefully the T-AO-X program will as well. If we didn’t have to replace all the _Ohios_ we might actually be able to gain some ground. ---
**Author:** ![dbeierl](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/dbeierl/32/11833_2.png) [@dbeierl](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/dbeierl)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2020, 7:29pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/101 "2020-09-21T19:29:30Z")
> [@john](#): > > also have one Zumwalt which is also a pig Worse… ![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/gcaptain_maritime_forum/original/3X/9/3/93924482a6076177490da652aacf28409497c8d7.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Gibbous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Gibbous](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Gibbous)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733/102 "2020-09-21T20:29:03Z")
Dear Captain Konrad, In response to gCaptain’s Impassioned Call For Change The United States Merchant Marine has been in decline for decades. In fact, this is the third time in history that America has allowed its Merchant Marine to deteriorate. Many factors are at play. One of the major issues is: the Merchant Marine is invisible to the American People. With virtually no “Public” support, it is difficult to gain any traction in Congress to fund any solution. i.e. “The American Ship Building Act”. Admiral Buzby, The American Maritime Partnership, A handful of people, including yourself, have been sounding the alarm for some time, employing the current strategy. May I suggest a change in strategy? The Maritime Industry needs a rally point, where a historic understanding of the situation it provided, In order to inspire the Maritime Industry, itself, while also reaching out to the Navy and the American people. The Maritime Industry needs a major marketing effort…a “Merchant Marine poster child” to explain the industry’s relevance, today. The challenge is to write the script and get it funded, post Covid, where there is no money. The Maritime Industry desperately needs such a film, now. Fortunately, understanding this exact issue, in 1987, I produced the documentary film “The Last Liberty” to explain the importance of the Merchant Marine. However, 30 years later, in 2019, I produced a sequel called [“Lessons of the Last Liberty”](https://www.thelastliberty.com/the-film), to provide an historical context for current events, to bring all Americans together. Without such an historic understanding of the situation, there is no way the American People will fund the rebuilding of the fleet. However, with the understanding that this is not the first time with have allowed the Merchant Marine, a positive outcome is possible. Please watch the film. [https://www.thelastliberty.com/the-film](https://www.thelastliberty.com/the-film) We can then discuss how to bring this message to the American People……using every possible platform. Robert Ferrand Producer, Writer, Director [Previous page](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733.md?page=4) [Next page](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/impassioned-call-for-saving-the-merchant-marine/56733.md?page=6)