# FOCs what are they? **URL:** \ **Category:** Maritime Topics\ **Created:** [June 14, 2021, 12:30pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/focs-what-are-they/59724 "2021-06-14T12:30:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ombugge](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/ombugge/32/11217_2.png) [@ombugge](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/ombugge)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2021, 12:30pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/focs-what-are-they/59724/1 "2021-06-14T12:30:37Z")
What is the definition of FOC?: > **[FOCs](https://www.itfseafarers.org/en/focs)** > > The ITF is unique amongst international trade union organisations in having a powerful influence on wages and conditions of one particular group of workers, seafarers working on ships flying Flags of Convenience (FOCs). > > FOCs provide a means of... Which ship registers are on ITFs list of FOCs?: > **[Current registries listed as FOCs](https://www.itfseafarers.org/en/focs/current-registries-listed-as-focs)** > > The following 35 countries have been declared FOCs by the ITF's Fair Practices Committee (a joint committee of ITF seafarers' and dockers' unions), which runs the ITF campaign against FOCs: > > > Antigua and... ---
**Author:** ![PDCMATE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PDCMATE](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/PDCMATE)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2021, 1:03pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/focs-what-are-they/59724/2 "2021-06-14T13:03:37Z")
You notice you don’t see NIS or DIS on there, they are the same as some of the others. ---
**Author:** ![ombugge](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/ombugge/32/11217_2.png) [@ombugge](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/ombugge)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2021, 1:44pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/focs-what-are-they/59724/3 "2021-06-14T13:44:58Z")
Both NIS and DIS demands a “genuine link” of the actual owner with the flag state. You don’t find Singapore on the list either for the same reason. Isle of Man is a popular flag to use by many foreign Owners, but it is not on the list either. It is in the Red Ensign Group however: [https://www.redensigngroup.org/member-registers/category-1/isle-of-man/](https://www.redensigngroup.org/member-registers/category-1/isle-of-man/) Until recently IoM was also an EU register. PS\> Norway, Denmark and Singapore are also full fletched shipping hubs, with all services from finance and insurance to management and crewing etc. ---
**Author:** ![PDCMATE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PDCMATE](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/PDCMATE)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2021, 2:52pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/focs-what-are-they/59724/4 "2021-06-14T14:52:54Z")
I disagree, any owner can register with NIS, and you can use crew from any country. Then you would have to argue that Panama, GIS and Bahamas should not be on the list based on by some sort of Shipping hub. Also Bermuda and Cayman are red ensign, so your IoM statement doesn’t make sense either. ---
**Author:** ![ombugge](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/ombugge/32/11217_2.png) [@ombugge](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/ombugge)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2021, 2:57pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/focs-what-are-they/59724/5 "2021-06-14T14:57:18Z")
> [@](#): > > In many cases these flags are not even run from the country concerned. Many of the FOC registers are actually run by privately owned corporation in the US;UK, Singapore, Greece etc. Some are both well known and well run, with good safety record, Financial and Maritime Law standard, worldwide Consular Services and good reputation in shipping circles. These are favoured by reputable Owners/Managers. Others have none of the above, but low tonnage tax and low entry requirements. They are the ones that gives FOCs a bad name and are favoured by unserious and crooked operators. Anybody have the time, or feel the urge, to research where the registers listed by ITF are actually operated from and by whom?? ---
**Author:** ![ombugge](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/ombugge/32/11217_2.png) [@ombugge](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/ombugge)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2021, 3:40pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/focs-what-are-they/59724/6 "2021-06-14T15:40:28Z")
Here is the requirements for registering a ship in NIS: > **[Registration of ship in the NIS](https://www.sdir.no/en/shipping/registration-of-commercial-vessels-in-nisnor/new-registration-nis/documentation-requirements-nis/)** > > Below, you will find the summarized documentation requirements for the formal registration of a new ship in the NIS. > [@](#): > > ## 7. Owner’s nationality > > NIS is open to owners of all nationalities, re. [the act of 12 June 1987 No. 48 relating to a Norwegian International Ship Register (NIS)] > ([NIS Act - Norwegian Maritime Authority](https://www.sdir.no/en/shipping/legislation/laws/the-nis-act/))§1. > > - If owner satisfies § 1 no. 2 or 3, **the main part of the technical and/or commercial management must be done by a shipping company with its head office in Norway.** > [@PDCMATE](#): > > and you can use crew from any country Yes, provided the crew meet STCW license and training requirement. Norwegian Safe Manning and adherence to ILO MLC’06 are required Crew health certificates per Norwegian standard applies to vessel in NIS register. Norwegian Labour Laws applies when it comes to work hours and rest periods etc. PS\> I did not decide which countries ITF put on their list, so why Bermuda, Cayman Islands and Gibraltar is on the list and IOM is not is beyond me too. (“Spoiled” Red Ensigns??) Why are Faroes, GIS and FIS there?? ---
**Author:** ![Urs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/958977/32.png) [@Urs](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Urs)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2021, 3:48pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/focs-what-are-they/59724/7 "2021-06-14T15:48:12Z")
> [@ombugge](#): > > Many of the FOC registers are actually run by privately owned corporation in the US;UK, Singapore, Greece etc. OK, but why is this principally bad? I know of a lot of countries being not really seriously good, and their politically controlled administrations are indeed in the the same category… ---
**Author:** ![ombugge](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/ombugge/32/11217_2.png) [@ombugge](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/ombugge)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2021, 3:50pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/focs-what-are-they/59724/8 "2021-06-14T15:50:38Z")
> [@Urs](#): > > OK, but why is this principally bad? I did not say it was bad, just a fact. Did you read the rest of my post?? ---
**Author:** ![PDCMATE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PDCMATE](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/PDCMATE)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2021, 4:08pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/focs-what-are-they/59724/9 "2021-06-14T16:08:00Z")
> [@ombugge](#): > > PS\> I did not decide which countries ITF put on their list Exactly, lists are one person/organizations view, I would say that this list unfairly represents Flag States with no actual requirements to be on this list, or to get off. I would say payments to someone have something to do with this. ---
**Author:** ![BrownWaterGuy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/brownwaterguy/32/4787_2.png) [@BrownWaterGuy](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/BrownWaterGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2021, 4:14pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/focs-what-are-they/59724/10 "2021-06-14T16:14:20Z")
• The ability and willingness of the flag state to enforce international minimum social standards on its vessels, including respect for basic human and trade union rights, freedom of association and the right to collective bargaining with bona fide trade unions. • The social record as determined by the degree of ratification and enforcement of ILO Conventions and Recommendations. • The safety and environmental record as revealed by the ratification and enforcement of IMO Conventions and revealed by port state control inspections, deficiencies and detentions. A good owner/operator is a good owner/operator and a good flag is a good flag. None of these are exclusive to closed registries or exclusive from FOCs ---
**Author:** ![BrownWaterGuy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/brownwaterguy/32/4787_2.png) [@BrownWaterGuy](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/BrownWaterGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2021, 4:17pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/focs-what-are-they/59724/11 "2021-06-14T16:17:11Z")
Keep in mind this list was created by a Labour organisation so their viewpoint might be slightly skewed from that of a mariner. I can think of a few more that I would add to this list but in the end, why is being an FOC such a bad thing? In and of itself I don’t see where it is. What do you do as a flag is more important than what type of flag you are. I can see several flags listed here that have better safety records than the US for example. ---
**Author:** ![dry\_fly](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/dry_fly/32/6570_2.png) [@dry\_fly](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/dry_fly)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 3:41am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/focs-what-are-they/59724/12 "2021-06-15T03:41:51Z")
When I was a Federal Great Lakes Pilot, it quickly became apparent that any vessel registered in Liberia was essentially run from a PO Box… Xyz Shipping (or whatever company you choose) 80 Broad Str. Monrovia, Liberia Every. Single. Ship. I imagine that once per day someone strolls to this address, picks up the mail, strolls home, and repackages correspondence into individual mailings to the actual owner. In 2000 I took a vessel from Duluth on down the lake and, I kid you not, it was owned by 3 doctors from New Jersey as a tax write-off…according to the Captain. Actual management of the vessel? Who knows? ---
**Author:** ![ombugge](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/ombugge/32/11217_2.png) [@ombugge](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/ombugge)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 9:07am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/focs-what-are-they/59724/13 "2021-06-15T09:07:00Z")
80 Broad Str. Monrovia doesn’t even exist: > **[Liberia: America’s outpost of financial secrecy — Finance Uncovered](https://www.financeuncovered.org/stories/liberia-americas-outpost-financial-secrecy)** PS\> I don’t know how many times I have posted this before. > [@dry\_fly](#): > > Actual management of the vessel? Who knows? Have you heard about 3rd Party Ship Management?: [https://www.intermanager.org/](https://www.intermanager.org/) Have you ever wondered why Liberia has a better safety record than US when it comes to shipping?? (They are not the only FOC to do so) I have wondered why most US flag ships you see outside US waters are registered in Wilmington De.(??) PS\> Not US owned OSVs. They are mostly registered in Vanuatu. Have you wondered why?? ---
**Author:** ![dry\_fly](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/dry_fly/32/6570_2.png) [@dry\_fly](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/dry_fly)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 11:40am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/focs-what-are-they/59724/14 "2021-06-15T11:40:13Z")
Wow, I bet you are LOTS of fun at parties. Humor/a touch of inventive wit? The point was yes, some doddering individual likely _could_ go to this fictitious address, get the mail, etc. Yes, 3rd Party…I did not climb up the ladder from the bum boat yesterday. Your attitude is what frosts a lot of people here. Find some humor in life, for pete’s sake. Everything is not an exercise in displaying your pedantic superiority over those of us lesser mariners from the US. ---
**Author:** ![Hartley](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/hartley/32/7603_2.png) [@Hartley](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Hartley)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 12:45pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/focs-what-are-they/59724/15 "2021-06-15T12:45:12Z")
Well, I am an ignoramus wrt FOCs, but I can tell you why American corporations register in Delaware - that state has no corporate income tax. ---
**Author:** ![ombugge](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/ombugge/32/11217_2.png) [@ombugge](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/ombugge)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 12:46pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/focs-what-are-they/59724/16 "2021-06-15T12:46:07Z")
I got enough humor for both of us, but my humor may not be understood by everybody, especially those who are looking for something to suite your point of view. ---
**Author:** ![ombugge](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/ombugge/32/11217_2.png) [@ombugge](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/ombugge)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 12:59pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/focs-what-are-they/59724/17 "2021-06-15T12:59:00Z")
Oh I’m not surprised. (Actually, I knew that) That is State Tax, not Federal Tax, right. (??) BTW; That must be the ones that cannot register at 80 Broad Str. Monrovia for some reason. PS\> That will all change now when everybody will be forced to charge at least 15% corporate tax per G7 agreement. (Or will Delaware still be a US Tax haven??) ---
**Author:** ![Hartley](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/hartley/32/7603_2.png) [@Hartley](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Hartley)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 1:08pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/focs-what-are-they/59724/18 "2021-06-15T13:08:03Z")
That’s state tax, not Federal (you can’t escape the Federales). Makes a big difference, though, which is why corporations that aren’t tied to the land locations (like a retail outlet) register in Delaware. Its also VERY popular with the corporations that are formed to own large yachts, for the same reason (also, annual corporate reporting is fairly minimal as well). ---
**Author:** ![ombugge](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/ombugge/32/11217_2.png) [@ombugge](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/ombugge)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 2:05pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/focs-what-are-they/59724/19 "2021-06-15T14:05:23Z")
> [@Hartley](#): > > (you can’t escape the Federales) Oh yes you CAN: > **[Jeff Bezos reportedly didn't pay any income taxes for at least 2 years...](https://www.businessinsider.com/jeff-bezos-did-not-pay-income-taxes-2-years-report-2021-6?r=US&IR=T#:)** > > ProPublica obtained confidential tax documents filed with the IRS that revealed how some of the world's wealthiest have avoided paying taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Hartley](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/hartley/32/7603_2.png) [@Hartley](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Hartley)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 2:34pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/focs-what-are-they/59724/20 "2021-06-15T14:34:57Z")
Unh-huh… Neither you nor I are in Mr. Bezos’ financial category, so WE can’t escape the long arm of our respective Countries’ taxing. But the super-rich are not subject to these limitations - not only do they own the legislatures & executives who write the tax laws, they have accounting resources that are far superior to anything we could afford. This is why it is so annoying when the class warfare nitwits start grinding on about “tax the rich” - what they really mean is “tax the middle class” - because the “rich” are not going to hang around and pay those taxes. [Next page](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/focs-what-are-they/59724.md?page=2)