I can see why someone with a small license and not much else on his resume might want to add DE.
However, most of the experienced tugboat captains who might be good DEs don’t need to add any fluff to their resume.
The problem with being a DE is that most companies are going to expect you to rush every Tom, Dick and Harry through a TOAR.
They will send you an endless stream of inexperienced wanna be mates, or mates that had never set foot on a tug until last week.
You will have conflict with the office when you don’t promptly sign off idiots or jerks.
Plus, they will expect you to gladly take on this extra duty and responsibility for no additional pay.
If a company wants someone to have a TOAR, they can pay $2000 to send him to a one day simulator course where everyone passes and gets an instant TOAR.
One of the large ATB companies that only hires guys with unlimited licenses (almost all academy grads) sends all the new hire mates to the TOAR simulator class before they go to a boat.
I asked a Port Captain why, and he said: “because time is money; it’s faster and cheaper than doing it onboard.”
What I find interesting is that instead of creating a new thread I searched and found a pertinent one to ask my question. Then the questions I was particularly interested in was the difference in what those I’ve asked and what I READ. I looked at the NAVIC and I looked at the CFR. Neither of those mentions that you need a master of towing license nor do they mention any length of time you need to obtain DE. I thought, well.. let me ask those that actually have it. So I cam here and specifically asked for those that do have it what license did you have and was there a length of time to hold it.
If you hold a mate or master of towing and are relatively young then someone had to sign your TOAR. So, when you say " don’t get it unless you get paid" or " You better be familiar with the NAVIC". What if the person that signed it for you had that attitude ? You simply can not get your mate of towing without a TOAR. You can not get a TOAR without there being DE’s. Are y’all honestly wanting to HAVE to go to a maratime academy or a simulator for the new mariners coming up? That pretty much burdens the haws piper. Shame on you for that.
This right here is why we’re all saying to really think about it. Most of us with bigger licenses avoid that endorsement like the plague for that reason. (That and per the USCG, we can already do the assessments without the QA certificate for the foreseeable future) @jdcavo gave you the nvic and relevant information for what you’re seeking, but you’re gonna have to do the legwork yourself on this one.
Everyone here tried to help you. Actually they did help you.
Until it became clear that you sound like one of those type of guys . . . that gives us a good reason not to be a DE.
Frankly, I think it ought to be a lot more difficult to become a DE, and that there should be a minimum length of time for TOAR training, perhaps 60 days onboard. Something to keep the companies from pressuring the DE to promptly pencil whip the TOAR.
Those TOAR simulator courses should be at least 40 hours, and they should be required to flunk at least 10% of the people taking the course.
This business of schools selling everybody passes USCG required courses needs to be reined in.
When is the USCG going to wake up to the fact that the TOAR program is not working as originally intended?
A one day simulator course (where every buys a TOAR for $2000, regardless of ability) is not what the USCG originally intended.
Nor is a DE that pencil whips it (because that’s what the company wants, and the DE is not getting paid to do the work properly) that’s not what the USCG originally intended either.
It seems that there are two logical options: 1) drop the TOAR requirement (and go back to the way things used to be for decades), or 2) reform the TOAR process to make it a worthwhile and reliable training and certification program.
tugsailor, if you are saying I am not like you, I take that as a compliment. I asked a simple question. When you got your DE what license did you hold and was there a time requirement that you hold said license. My research led me to believe you only needed to hold the equivalent license and not time requirement. I was trying to confirm or deny that by asking people that had the DE. You turned this into a " should you be a DE or NOT". I have my reasons to be a DE they are not company or money motivated. When I see an apprentice mate working hard and doing the time it would be nice to save him 2 grand.
It doesn’t save him $2000, it ends up costing him a lot more. Time is money.
If someone has the seatime and qualifies for Mate of Towing, they are money ahead to pay $2000 for the simulator course and instantly get the TOAR in their hand, and start sailing Mate with a big pay bump.
Jumping from $400 a day as an AB to $800 a day, as a Mate, that pay bump pays for the simulator course in only five days.
You are not doing anyone a favor by running them through a “free” TOAR that takes two months.
Of course, if you are just going to pencil whip his TOAR in one day, then yes, you are saving him $2000.
Explain how it’s hand fed when I posted the pertinent CFR ? And cited what I understood about it and what others have said and was asking which way it was for the guys that hold DE. To me that’s doing the research and finding an inconsistency, but whatever.
