Have just graduated with my thirds I would like to say that while I don’t know everything by far, I and many like me spent the majority of my cadet time working on deck.
Just saying… a lot of us have intimate knowledge on chipping, grinding, painting, and picking up heavy things and putting them down. Its been 60 / 40 working on deck to standing watch… for myself anyways. But then again I went to GLMA so maybe that counts for something.
Good luck on the job! I would love to land a position on an ocean towing boat.
I have sailed with guys who used to work for both Dann Ocean and Tradewinds. The guy who worked for tradewinds had good things to say about them, the only reason he left was the lack of upward mobility. When there are so few boats in the fleet, wheelhouse jobs can be very few and very far between. The guys who worked for Dann Ocean never really had much bad to say about them and being as much as sailors love to bitch I assume that means they could be worse. As with any company my advice is to try and keep your expectations in check. If you are comparing your Dann Ocean experience to what you have heard about Moran for example you will spend all your time disappointed.
I have done contract towing and a set run before. The set run is kind of nice in that you can look ahead some what and have some vague idea of a possible schedule for crew change locations … maybe. The only way to be sure where and when you are crew changing is to never leave the harbor. Contract towing is a crap shoot. Just when you feel like you have something figured out it will change. I have sat at some crappy docks for a week or more never moving and I’ve spent an entire hitch barely shutting down the engines. Only you can determine which you like more.
[QUOTE=Siberfire;54956]Have just graduated with my thirds I would like to say that while I don’t know everything by far, I and many like me spent the majority of my cadet time working on deck.[/QUOTE]
Ever made up to a barge in push gear? How about dropping a barge on the wire? Docking or sailing a barge from the dock on deck? Have you ever seen any of such done, let alone been involved?
Don’t take my comment personally. You suffer from an easily curable affliction, it’s called inexperience. Such is not an insult, it is merely a statement of fact. As I said, MOST Third Mate grads suffer from the same affliction.
We had a cadet sail with us that thought he would be hired as a mate. We broke him in on wire work and he was useless even at painting. He could correct the shit out of charts though
[QUOTE=kfj;54971]We had a cadet sail with us that thought he would be hired as a mate.[/QUOTE]
I had one of those when I was still on deck. Difference was he couldn’t even correct charts very well. He was, and now as a deckhand, pretty much is, useless. Seems he didn’t graduate his little two year program for a 1600 Ton license. He was the worst we had and he’s still an arrogant little prick on deck. I’ve assisted on jobs where he was decking and he complains about what the Captain/Mate should or shouldn’t have done during the job while failing to do his own job. They don’t “listen” to him.
I’ve worked with both, the good and the bad. I see this guy because he’s an idiot. Others? I had them for a couple of weeks as a Mate and now they’re on offshore boats because they do their job and soak up the knowledge and experience like a sponge. Don’t see them because they’ve moved on to bigger and better things. They also didn’t come on the boat attempting to impress anyone with what they knew, they impressed us with their acknowledgement that they didn’t know anything but they had a willingness to learn.
No, not trying to twist anything. Regardless of pedigree, maritime graduate, dropout, hawsepiper, or professional knowitall, Dann will hire anyone, and they will hire them as an OS. This is what was being referred to. I don’t see what you are mis interpreting.
You must realize that a tug crew typically has only two deckhands to make and break tow. There is NOTHING you learned, did or saw in school that would prepare you, or your compatriots to do this safely, under adverse conditions without a senior more experienced deckhand to learn from. By extension the mate or captain must have equal experience to know how, when, and where to do this also. This is NOT learned by textbook or controlled classroom, simulator or training tug time. It is called OTJT. Time is what gives you experience.
[QUOTE=cappy208;54982]No, not trying to twist anything. Regardless of pedigree, maritime graduate, dropout, hawsepiper, or professional knowitall, Dann will hire anyone, and they will hire them as an OS. This is what was being referred to. I don’t see what you are mis interpreting.[/QUOTE]
I didn’t misinterpret anything, but thank you for the clarification…
Not directed at anyone specifically because I see it on a lot of threads, but I always find it interesting that someone who has never spent a single day in an Academy can tell me what I did or did not learn, do or experience.
[QUOTE=KPEngineer;55002]Not directed at anyone specifically because I see it on a lot of threads, but I always find it interesting that someone who has never spent a single day in an Academy can tell me what I did or did not learn, do or experience.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough, understandable even. I am curious though, while you find it interesting, do you find the sentiment or opinion, for the most part, inaccurate?
I am most familiar with maine maritime’s small vessel students and most of them that go on to work on tugs spent 2 or 3 summers working in tugs. The unlimited guys are rather clueless though…
[QUOTE=Cal;55010]Fair enough, understandable even. I am curious though, while you find it interesting, do you find the sentiment or opinion, for the most part, inaccurate?[/QUOTE]
Generally speaking, I agree somewhat, on some level, to some degree that it is partially true. To be specific, I disagree that I learned “NOTHING” of value. An academy education does not teach you the specifics of working on the deck of a tug, but that is not what it is meant to do. There are no classes on throwing lines, working a hawser or making up on the hip or in push gear. It does teach you general seamanship that gives you a solid foundation in which you should be able to pick up those specifics pretty quickly.
I think most of the Academy vs. Hawespipe discussion comes down to expectations. A grizzled old captain will bristle when the newly minted 22 year old Academy grad says “I’m a mate” because there is no way the guy can live up to the captains expectations of what a “mate” should be. The “mate” is is going to bristle when the captain says he is no better than an OS because he worked long and hard to get his license. A captain who doesn’t expect anything more from an Academy grad than being able to clean the head isn’t being realistic and the academy grad who expects to be able to take a watch is fooling himself. The reality is probably somewhere in the middle.
[QUOTE=KPEngineer;55002]Not directed at anyone specifically because I see it on a lot of threads, but I always find it interesting that someone who has never spent a single day in an Academy can tell me what I did or did not learn, do or experience.[/QUOTE]
You suppose too much. I have spent days/weeks in academies and have seen the ‘excellent’ examples you are referring to. Both the ‘professors,’ Lts, Cdrs, and Cpts. who inhabit the halls. Hmm… wasn’t Hazelwood hired by your academy as an adjunct after his time? Time spent on your own, responsible to NO one else, being responsible for the ‘whole shebang’ as it were is NOT ‘teachable.’
The experience that I have seen, felt, done, and lived only confirms that under close circumstances, in Ordinary conditions a recent college graduate is in NO way competent to assume a leadership or command position. Do you have a different perspective?
Not that there is NOT a level of competence from some individuals, but the overall experience level garnered by every graduate is NOT congruent with the necessary level of leadership and experience needed to actually stand a watch alone and competently. You may have a different opinion, and that is OK. But I have seen too many guys come out thinking they are “all that and a bag of chips” but in reality they are a few slices short of a loaf. But they would NEVER admit that. This is what I feel is the ‘academia’ way of thinking that is not in touch with reality. In a large crew, with several licenses to cover the watches is really different than a small tug crew with ONE or two licenses on the boat. There is NO one else to fall back on a small boat. You may feel differently being from a large ship. But on a small boat it is different.
It is not about what (or where) you learned, did or experienced, but how an average 3rd fills a watch. In some industries a 3rd is in command of a watch. Be it on a tug, a ferry, a ship or a power plant. But some do NOT matriculate up to ‘take charge.’ This is the issue. Not all can ‘fill the shoes’ to assume command. I have found this to be a personal issue versus a CV issue. Just IMHO.
[QUOTE=KPEngineer;55027] An academy education does not teach you the specifics of working on the deck of a tug, but that is not what it is meant to do. There are no classes on throwing lines, working a hawser or making up on the hip or in push gear. It does teach you general seamanship that gives you a solid foundation in which you should be able to pick up those specifics pretty quickly.[/QUOTE]
I agree with your sentiment. The expectations of both are not realistic. However, as you state, all an academy does is provide a foundation. I should point out that my opinion is not limited to working on the water. ANY recent college graduate, in whatever field they may have chosen, are very rarely equipped to take a position of authority. There are of course exceptions to this, but as a general rule it’s pretty accurate. Experience is only gained in one manner, theories don’t always hold up in practical application.
A mate can have any opinion of the Captain’s expectations that he so chooses. At the end of the day however, the only opinion that matters is the Captain’s. The Captain is responsible for all of it, the good and the bad. I don’t care for some of my Captain’s policy’s, personally I think there are better ways to do some things. What I think doesn’t matter, plain and simple. He is responsible for it so I do it the way he want’s it done, period.
Any mate that can’t clean a head properly can’t ensure that his deckhands are doing the job properly. Such is the same with so many other jobs on deck, the others are more important and keep people alive.
[QUOTE=cappy208;55054] Hmm… wasn’t Hazelwood hired by your academy as an adjunct after his time? [/QUOTE] Nope … Google is your friend
You may feel differently being from a large ship.
Who is supposing now? I have only sailed on tugs since graduation
That being said … I think we pretty much agree but I did take some umbrage at the emphasis put on “NOTHING”. I absolutely agree that a green academy grad needs some training to be a competent deckhand, in good conditions never mind adverse, because those specific evolutions have not been experienced. My point was really only that he is not equivalent to someone with no relevant experience as I inferred from your comment the first time I read it.
in Ordinary conditions a recent college graduate is in NO way competent to assume a leadership or command position. Do you have a different perspective?
Nope, and I said that exact thing
the academy grad who expects to be able to take a watch is fooling himself.
But some do NOT matriculate up to ‘take charge.’ This is the issue.
This is an issue no matter what license you have and no matter where you got it and I agree it is a personal issue. We had a deckhand who was all full of his hawespiper self once he got his license. He used to stand out on deck and badmouth the mate as an idiot who didn’t know how to drive a boat. Once he got the chance to train and work on his TOAR he found out he was afraid to drive even light boat … Ooops! Another deckhand who was relatively unschooled I would sail with him as a mate in a heartbeat and even though he wasn’t done with his TOAR I felt safe on deck while he was in the wheelhouse. I know for myself, I had four days to train and then the other engineer got off and I was left by myself for the next two weeks. I still remember the lump in my throat watching him drive away and realizing it was all mine. It was definitely a feeling I didn’t anticipate.
Not that there is NOT a level of competence from some individuals, but the overall experience level garnered by every graduate is NOT congruent with the necessary level of leadership and experience needed to actually stand a watch alone and competently.
Agreed … It is unrealistic to expect them to, and it is unrealistic for them to think they can.
This is what I feel is the ‘academia’ way of thinking that is not in touch with reality.
Academies train square pegs, the problem is that they don’t realize tugs are round holes. The real issue I think is that few people go to academies with the intention of going into the tug/barge industry. They end up doing it as an after thought when deep sea shipping isn’t any good and MARAD is telling them they have to sail and can’t work shoreside or they will have to pay back the cost of their education. They bring a deep sea attitude to an inland world and it rubs people the wrong way.
Sorry… Brain fart. Hazelwood was hired post Valdez by SUNY. Correct state, wrong side of the Sound. MY bad.
Cal: I was responding across the forum from another post, to that poster, who mentioned in another post that he was qualified for MORE than an OS position as a Graduate. Sorry. Sometimes I write thinking that the poster will be ‘cruising’ the forums for more info. But sometimes it seems people only come on here in one shot get info and bolt. Maybe the info is not what they are looking for, or doesn’t agree with what they want to hear.
Alot of time grads think they know it all(not everyone)
So I’d rather work with a fresh OS who is willing to learn than someone who doesn’t know jack but think they are the cats a$$
