[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;135768]I’m rooting for you Fraqrat, but then I was rooting for Tom Cruise in “The Last Samurai” in the scene where he attacked those Gatling Guns.[/QUOTE]
Weren’t. those automatic pointy stick launchers ?
[QUOTE=c.captain;135617]why would any mariner want smaller crews on very big OSVs? why don’t you want the additional jobs a 14man crew would create? why don’t you want there to be a designated chief mate or first assistant? why don’t you want additional people available to respond to an emergency?
ONLY THE OWNERS WANT SMALL CREWS SO THEY CAN MAKE MORE PROFITS?[/QUOTE]
I work for a profit share based company so it me and the dog, we do get company suppled meds for 24hr watches though via obamacare so they are free.
[QUOTE=JW-Oceans;135741]No but basic fire fighting, personal safety, basic first aid, social responsibilities, and water survival seems like a necessary BASIC SAFETY TRAINING for anyone who is to step foot on any vessel outside the demarcation line should possess. Not just book work, here’s the answers, “Safegulf”, real hands on training.
In fact, one would think people who actually realize that you are up sXXt creek without a paddle when at sea would want to add more to this set of basic skills training… How about how to read a compass? Basic radio usage? Red right return?.. Marine Debris ( LOL)[/QUOTE]
Holy Moses, are you saying you can work in the GoM without all that?
What special training does the chief mate U/L have that makes him more qualified than a 2nd captain? Is this man not legally the second in command if so designated on the station bill? Is that not legal enough? If the only other engineer on the boat besides me is on watch when I’m not does that not make him the first assistant? I’m still trying to follow your logic as to why it has to be an unlimited license. We’ve been doing just fine without it all these years. So the boats got a little bigger I’m still the same job I was doing when the boats were 165-180 foot. The only thing different now is the influx of egocentric ship guys that seem to think we have been doing it wrong all these years. Is there a special mud boat class at the academies now that I’m not aware of? What is this mythical training that makes a 30 year old chief mate from an academy more qualified than a 50 year old 6000 itc master with 30 years under his belt?
Hell. I haven’t seen less than 15-17 men on the station bill in years. Crisis averted…carry on.
why should I even bother trying to convince any of you rabble? OMSA knows what it wants and that is to run ships like boats and all you boat trash are playing right into their hand with your support of the existing OSV manning structure. I say OSVs over 6000grt are ships and should have a ship’s manning structure and all of you obviously don’t. You feel the system as it is is just fine and dandy. 56 days or whatever and take it to the USCG for the endorsement! Couldn’t be easier!
I bet y’all would be singing a different tune if having a ship structure and tiered licenses on super large OSVs made a clearer path to an unlimited license. I bet you then would be all over that idea.
A) There’s no such thing as a second captain… I can’t get a 2nd Captains License or endorsement so that argument is stupid. As per the CFRs, the “second captain” is… gasp… The Chief Mate!
B) The vessels are, by all accounts, unlimited and should be crewed as such. You want to move up, up grade. Just like with 18 wheelers, Yea something who drives a F450 could probably drive a big rig, but they can’t until they get the proper license. This blue water vs bayou water crap is getting old. Yes bigger crews are needed for bigger boats. The boats are not only bigger, but are more advanced so more people are needed.
A) then by CFR definition the next lowest deck officer regardless of name is the chief mate that sounds legal enough for me so the COI doesn’t require it big deal the guy is technically the chief mate again I ask what does it matter wether he’s an U/L chief mate or 6000 itc master is there a module for CM test that specifically covers all facets of OSV operations that only having that license makes him qualified
B) by whose account is it unlimited? This isn’t bayou versus blue water I know plenty of guys that hawsepiped into those big licenses why do bigger boats need bigger crews as tankers and box ships have increased in size it’s still the same two dozen guys crewing the ship by your reasoning a 1000 ft ship should be crewed by 100 men the boats are more advanced in some ways with the automation and MAMS so I acquiesced and added an ETO to the crew compliment the U in ACCU means unmanned why do I need more people as i stated the difference between 250-350 OSV is an extra hundred foot of deck and cargo room that hundred feet in the cargo room is extra mud tank bulkheads and extra dry bulk tanks and longer runs of piping and wiring there isn’t a dilithiim crystal chamber warp drive or flux capacitor down there in that area why do we need 6 more guys to stand around down there and stare at a corrugated bulkhead or giant p-tank
[QUOTE=Fraqrat;135821]A) then by CFR definition the next lowest deck officer regardless of name is the chief mate that sounds legal enough for me so the COI doesn’t require it big deal the guy is technically the chief mate again I ask what does it matter wether he’s an U/L chief mate or 6000 itc master is there a module for CM test that specifically covers all facets of OSV operations that only having that license makes him qualified
B) by whose account is it unlimited? This isn’t bayou versus blue water I know plenty of guys that hawsepiped into those big licenses why do bigger boats need bigger crews as tankers and box ships have increased in size it’s still the same two dozen guys crewing the ship by your reasoning a 1000 ft ship should be crewed by 100 men the boats are more advanced in some ways with the automation and MAMS so I acquiesced and added an ETO to the crew compliment the U in ACCU means unmanned why do I need more people as i stated the difference between 250-350 OSV is an extra hundred foot of deck and cargo room that hundred feet in the cargo room is extra mud tank bulkheads and extra dry bulk tanks and longer runs of piping and wiring there isn’t a dilithiim crystal chamber warp drive or flux capacitor down there in that area why do we need 6 more guys to stand around down there and stare at a corrugated bulkhead or giant p-tank[/QUOTE]
if you think there are 24 crew on a US commercial ship, then you are clearly out of your element. There isn’t a conventional US commercial ship out there that doesn’t wish they had a 24 man crew when it’s time to dock, undock, embark/disembark pilots, handle port officials, SCA assholes, take on stores, bunkers, etc. all while trying to stay compliant with STCW hrs. so we don’t have to hear about it from the office or port state control.
MLL won’t even add an electrician leaving Norfolk unless there are over 200 reefers abd. And they will most certainly say, “so sorry, better luck next time.” if its 199. Anybody who is carrying 2 3/Ms these days does do b/c of STCW hour constraints, not because of the COI. That puts APL at 21 crew. 22 is the highest I can think of, and that is only b/c of old contracts with the ARA, not b/c the COI says REO to be carried. Those ships are probably less than 8.
And trust me, 3 more crew would be a god send. But it will never happen again. There are times when we beg for cadets b/c we need the help. Simply being a 1000ft vessel creates work even when idle.
So why isn’t anyone screaming from the rafters about increasing manning on those? Why does a 350ft OSV need all these extra guys if a 1000 ft ship doesn’t require them? It seems the almighty unions would be lobbying for this to get more members dues paying jobs. Hey c.cap why don’t you rant on that for a while?
The whole down play of licences in the Usa is devaluing you guys at a great rate compared to the rest of the world.
Long term its the best defense of the jones act as nobody would want to come to your waters and steal your jobs.
The money looks good now as you are expanding like crazy not because its a valued job.
The average domestic us airline pilot earns less than most countrys now…
[QUOTE=Fraqrat;135828]So why isn’t anyone screaming from the rafters about increasing manning on those? Why does a 350ft OSV need all these extra guys if a 1000 ft ship doesn’t require them? It seems the almighty unions would be lobbying for this to get more members dues paying jobs. Hey c.cap why don’t you rant on that for a while?[/QUOTE]
Unions are trying to increase manning, it’s a workload / safety issue. They’ve been successful in some cases some runs have added a third mate not on the coi. Increase manning is not supported by all members because of the possibility of reduced overtime, also obviously it’s a competitiveness issue for the contract companies.
Unlimited by who’s account? Lets try the USCG! Hints why there’s a 1600/3000 license then the next step is an unlimited license. I love how the Bayou Boys always think people are trying to screw them, yet in the '70s, people were just given a license, then when the boats got bigger, an endorsement was made up and again just given to them (the assessment is BS and there’s no testing) and now the latest is if you have a 6000 and been sailing on it for a year, you can test for an Unlimited Master’s License. Yea, getting that shaft I see.
You asked what makes and U/L Chief Mate more qualified, the regulations he’s already use to following. I’ve heard the horror stories of captains and guys running a watch saying stuff like “I’m not following SOLAS Regs” or “screw the CFRs, I’ve been a shrimper all my life, I know what goes on.” Oh here’s another good one, “I’m not going to check our stability, we’re not down to our marks so we’re ok.” I’m not sure why you’re anti larger crews. It’s proven to be safer, having a couple of people working together in the ER is safer, having extra eyes when taking a vessel down a slip that was built for 200’ vessels is nice, having extra hands in taking care of the massive amounts of paperwork we do daily is a nice help and I think the safety records prove this. If we keep the small 8 man crews, just about every time the big vessels move, everyone who’s off will be waking up… yea that’s what we need to do. Screw sleep, who needs it anyway. We can sleep when we die… or when a tanker smashes us because the one guy on the bridge fell asleep because he’s awake on his off time so often.
But here’s a crazy thought, lets go back to the time where no one had a license and lets just turn everyone lose! Have at it boys!
I can’t say for every OSV company out there, but with the one I work for, we run 3-5 on the “bridge team” usually all have a masters license 4-6 on the “deck crew” and 4-5 in the “engine department” at least two engineers and normally two QMEDs and always 1 sometimes 2 “galley hands.” On top of that we may have 6 ROV and other clients onboard if necessary for the job. It is the company’s responsibility to crew the vessel not only to COI but to crew the vessel with the necessary amount of competent mariners. If the master of the vessel were to request further help it would be the company’s responsibility to fulfill that request. I have yet to see a large OSV manned only to COI unless it is warm stacked. I have never sailed blue water but it sounds like we should be talking about the manning requirements on those vessels more so than OSVs.
[QUOTE=KrustySalt;135838]and now the latest is if you have a 6000 and been sailing on it for a year, you can test for an Unlimited Master’s License. Yea, getting that shaft I see.[/QUOTE]
for God’s sake man…please don’t tell me this is true! when did the rules change?
I saw a memo about 5 weeks ago. There’s been a buzz about it in our fleet. I’m thinking it’s to they can drop the 6000 endorsement since no one else in the world considers it valid. Someone started a thread on it a couple of weeks ago, you may have missed it because I was surprised you didn’t comment on it.
[QUOTE=Fraqrat;135828]So why isn’t anyone screaming from the rafters about increasing manning on those? Why does a 350ft OSV need all these extra guys if a 1000 ft ship doesn’t require them? It seems the almighty unions would be lobbying for this to get more members dues paying jobs. Hey c.cap why don’t you rant on that for a while?[/QUOTE]
Please, please, please Fraq…you know how to write so please lay out for me why exactly you feel the system as it is now is better for very large OSVs over 6000grt? Are ships not safer if they have higher manning requirements with mariners with higher training and service standards? Please tell me why you feel having a very large chief mate’s or first assistant engineer license is a bad thing? Why is having more training and seatime required to obtain those licenses disenfranchises the OSV mariner? Is the minimal large OSV training requirements as they exist now really adequate for a 9000grt flex pipelayer with 200 POB because that is what is coming under the very large OSV class? I am not saying UL licensed mariners are required or better than a very large OSV license provided those licenses require a higher standard of service and training.
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[QUOTE=KrustySalt;135849]I saw a memo about 5 weeks ago. There’s been a buzz about it in our fleet. I’m thinking it’s to they can drop the 6000 endorsement since no one else in the world considers it valid. Someone started a thread on it a couple of weeks ago, you may have missed it because I was surprised you didn’t comment on it.[/QUOTE]
the USCG considers in valid in the GoM in fact they are the ones who implemented it. There certainly cannot be too many large US flagged large OSVs working foreign that the owners cannot find UL mariners to man them? Hell they only need a master and a chief!
Wow you’re way behind the times half the shit you just described hasn’t happened in 15+ years. I didn’t say anyone was getting screwed. If by the CG’s account it was unlimited it would be manned and crewed that way. These horror stories you’ve heard are just that “stories” from back in the day. This bullshit about an u/l chief mate is the only one that can follow regulations he’s used to following is ridiculous. Are you actively working on an OSV in the GOM today? If so please enlighten us as to which company so we can all steer clear of it. In one statement you managed to shit on most every limited license mariner reading this. Now they are aware that because they don’t have an unlimited chief mate or first asst license they don’t know anything about SOLAS, stability or CFR’s. Why do we need the whole crew up to move the boat 2 or 3 guys can handle the lines. Are extra guys nice to have? Sure they are but when it’s required that’s a different story. When day rates are high extra crew can be had. When day rates are low those extra guys are gone. If it’s a requirement and we are in a bust then boats get tied up because they can’t afford to pay 7 mates to stare out the window when really you only need one? If you need five guys to stare out the window because you can’t drive your highly maneuverable boat in a tight spot maybe you shouldn’t be driving. The ab’s on watch can untie and head to the bridge to augment your mate/DPO in look out duties. No one should fall asleep because he had 12 hours to sleep. No one will be alone on the bridge because just about everyone has a two man rule for the bridge. Please talk about stuff you’re familiar with.
I’m actually talking about now. Clearly because you’re in the ER you don’t know what it’s like. You still have blind spots, it has nothing to do with maneuverable vessel, it has to do with the blind spots. By the way, my references to SOLAS and CFRs happened within the last 6 months so yes, I’m very familiar!
I give I surrender it’s whatever you say it is. Unlimited licenses are super awesome and Im so jealous. I wish I was smart enough to get one. I hear they add at least a foot to your dick size as well. You’re right none of know what were doing down here. We need more training and more testing to make sure we can all do our jobs. I apologize for not seeing the light. I am humbled that you have set me on the correct path. I bow and scrape before you. I’m gonna go figure out what this SOLAS, stability and these CFR thingies are. I have so much to learn…