# Are traditional navigation methods still appropriate on board modern ships? **URL:** \ **Category:** Professional Mariner Forum\ **Created:** [February 20, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/are-traditional-navigation-methods-still-appropriate-on-board-modern-ships/9693 "2013-02-20T15:10:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![thughes1987](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/0ea827/32.png) [@thughes1987](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/thughes1987)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/are-traditional-navigation-methods-still-appropriate-on-board-modern-ships/9693/1 "2013-02-20T15:10:27Z")
Hello, I am working on a research project to investigate whether the likes of celestial navigation and the magnetic compass are still appropriate in the modern age of electronic navigation. I would like to get an appreciation of the opinions of today’s navigators and captains on this subject and have developed 2 surveys, one aimed at masters and the other at qualified watch-keeping officers. It would be greatly appreciated if you could take the time to complete the appropriate survey using the links below. Additionally, if you have any comments or ideas on this subject, they would be greatly welcomed, my email address is [thughes1987@hotmail.co.uk](mailto:thughes1987@hotmail.co.uk) Thanks, Thomas [B]A questionnaire for navigating officers:[/B] > **[Trends of use of selected navigational equipment - A questionnaire for navigating officers](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScOuHbY0hvh0AqkbsduMD_AHNTyKfjBr5ZnuXvg72u2KExt9g/viewform)** > > These questions are designed to examine the modern trends of use of navigation methods; namely, celestial navigation and the magnetic compass and comparisons between them and their modern alternatives. > This questionnaire is part of a study to... [B]A questionnaire for masters:[/B] > **[Trends of use of selected navigational equipment - A questionnaire for masters of ships](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfFiyNVmvQYr4DInE_uWkV1FiLRTvCLbFx8Y1lQTd5O-OWWrA/viewform)** > > These questions are intended to be answered by masters of ships of 500gt and above, holding an unlimited master's qualification. They are designed to examine the master's opinions on the trends of use of navigational equipment, aboard their ship, by... ---
**Author:** ![Sweat-n-Grease](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sweat-n-Grease](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Sweat-n-Grease)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/are-traditional-navigation-methods-still-appropriate-on-board-modern-ships/9693/2 "2013-02-20T15:59:30Z")
Best know Celestial Nav when the shit hits the fan. ---
**Author:** ![PaddyWest2012](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/paddywest2012/32/2405_2.png) [@PaddyWest2012](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/PaddyWest2012)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/are-traditional-navigation-methods-still-appropriate-on-board-modern-ships/9693/3 "2013-02-20T16:02:30Z")
[QUOTE=Sweat-n-Grease;99953]Best know Celestial Nav when the shit hits the fan.[/QUOTE] It’s only a matter of time till someone starts shooting down satellites. Every merchant ship afloat will know exactly where they are to a tenth of a nautical mile and every American navy ship afloat will be running around like a chicken with its head cut off since they stopped teaching celestial navigation at Annapolis. Thank god for John Harrison. ---
**Author:** ![Azimuth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e9a140/32.png) [@Azimuth](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Azimuth)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/are-traditional-navigation-methods-still-appropriate-on-board-modern-ships/9693/4 "2013-02-20T16:11:02Z")
[QUOTE=PaddyWest2012;99954]It’s only a matter of time till someone starts shooting down satellites. Every merchant ship afloat will know exactly where they are to a tenth of a nautical mile and every American navy ship afloat will be running around like a chicken with its head cut off since they stopped teaching celestial navigation at Annapolis. Thank god for John Harrison.[/QUOTE] That’s why God made Quartermasters! ---
**Author:** ![Topsail](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b487fb/32.png) [@Topsail](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Topsail)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/are-traditional-navigation-methods-still-appropriate-on-board-modern-ships/9693/5 "2013-02-20T16:58:06Z")
Some of the new generation of navigators … are so obsessed and fanatical about the electronic navigation systems like ECDIS and iPhone, that they would hit a cliff during day time in perfect visibility and wonder why ! ![](http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/6243/disaster2006alvastar6.gif) ---
**Author:** ![Kennebec\_Captain](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/kennebec_captain/32/13_2.png) [@Kennebec\_Captain](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Kennebec_Captain)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/are-traditional-navigation-methods-still-appropriate-on-board-modern-ships/9693/6 "2013-02-20T17:29:29Z")
[QUOTE=PaddyWest2012;99954]… every American navy ship afloat will be running around like a chicken with its head cut off since they stopped teaching celestial navigation at Annapolis. Thank god for John Harrison.[/QUOTE] Navigation on a Navy ship is done by a team which consists either entirely or mostly of petty officers (enlisted). Even when the officers received training in cel nav it was done on a day by day basis by the chief quartermaster. There was an interesting paper done on the navy bridge team; Hutchins, Edwin. "The Technology of Team Navigation. ---
**Author:** ![z-drive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c37758/32.png) [@z-drive](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/z-drive)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/are-traditional-navigation-methods-still-appropriate-on-board-modern-ships/9693/7 "2013-02-20T18:00:52Z")
[QUOTE=PaddyWest2012;99954]…Every merchant ship afloat will know exactly where they are to a tenth of a nautical mile?[/QUOTE] Tenths! So you’re saying within 600’ or so? Lucky to get down within a couple miles in the real world, but thats on smaller vessels. I think i know what you meant, but don’t want this “pollster” to misquote. ---
**Author:** ![Kennebec\_Captain](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/kennebec_captain/32/13_2.png) [@Kennebec\_Captain](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Kennebec_Captain)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/are-traditional-navigation-methods-still-appropriate-on-board-modern-ships/9693/8 "2013-02-20T18:19:44Z")
I don’t see why the two choices are GPS or celestial nav. There should be some system like Loran as a check or backup to gps, especially coastwise. With regards to the gyro vs magnetic compass, with systems that track and display the ship’s course continually it’s less critical to check the compass error on every watch. ---
**Author:** ![PaddyWest2012](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/paddywest2012/32/2405_2.png) [@PaddyWest2012](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/PaddyWest2012)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/are-traditional-navigation-methods-still-appropriate-on-board-modern-ships/9693/9 "2013-02-20T19:05:29Z")
[QUOTE=Topsail;99961]Some of the new generation of navigators … are so obsessed and fanatical about the electronic navigation systems like ECDIS and iPhone, that they would hit a cliff during day time in perfect visibility and wonder why ! [/QUOTE] This is one youngster who’d gladly ditch the iPhone and ECDIS in favor of some trig tables and a hunk of highly calibrated aluminum any day! ---
**Author:** ![Sweat-n-Grease](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sweat-n-Grease](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Sweat-n-Grease)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/are-traditional-navigation-methods-still-appropriate-on-board-modern-ships/9693/10 "2013-02-20T20:33:43Z")
[QUOTE=PaddyWest2012;99954]It’s only a matter of time till someone starts shooting down satellites. Every merchant ship afloat will know exactly where they are to a tenth of a nautical mile and every American navy ship afloat will be running around like a chicken with its head cut off since they stopped teaching celestial navigation at Annapolis. Thank god for John Harrison.[/QUOTE] Are you shitting me? The Naval Academy no longer teaches Celestial Nav? Well I suppose the Local Hour Angle of Aries might mean Happy Hour at a saloon called Aries. ---
**Author:** ![seadog6608](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@seadog6608](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/seadog6608)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/are-traditional-navigation-methods-still-appropriate-on-board-modern-ships/9693/11 "2013-02-20T21:49:34Z")
Gee whiz I don’t know. Ask Captain Schmuckatelli from the Costa Concordia. ---
**Author:** ![Topsail](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b487fb/32.png) [@Topsail](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Topsail)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 6:49am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/are-traditional-navigation-methods-still-appropriate-on-board-modern-ships/9693/12 "2013-02-21T06:49:08Z")
There’s a navigation instrument called ‘‘Depth Sounder’’. That instrument shows a numeral digit. If that number decreases, it means that the sea floor is getting closer and closer to the keel of your vessel. In other words, the clearance under keel might finally not be sufficient to apply the Archimedes Principle of flotation. ![](http://gcaptain.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/web_130129-N-ZZ999-033.jpeg) Another navigation instrument called ‘‘Radar’’ can be use as a positioning system, by means of tools like EBL, VRM or PI. You can even compare the EBL to the Gyro Pelorus. As well, that clever gadget can be employ as an Anti Collision System by means of the ARPA. You don’t even have to suffer anymore by plotting manually the target on a plotting sheet or worse, directly on the PPI. ![](http://www.usmra.com/photos/shipping_accident/Renate-Schulte-1.jpg) … 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Topsail](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b487fb/32.png) [@Topsail](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Topsail)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 7:05am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/are-traditional-navigation-methods-still-appropriate-on-board-modern-ships/9693/13 "2013-02-21T07:05:21Z")
Finally, you are fully authorized to look with your owns eyes through the glass windows of the navigation bridge. Normally, the eyes are connected to the brain so if you ever see something strange floating around, you can whether call the captain or react yourself. If you ever see something like that through the port hole, it might be too late. Best chance next time ! 😃 ![](http://csimg.webmarchand.com/srv/FR/280095891b005wvfqfg/T/340x340/C/FFFFFF/url/sticker-hublot-bateau-sous-l.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![PaddyWest2012](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/paddywest2012/32/2405_2.png) [@PaddyWest2012](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/PaddyWest2012)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 7:06am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/are-traditional-navigation-methods-still-appropriate-on-board-modern-ships/9693/14 "2013-02-21T07:06:35Z")
[QUOTE=Sweat-n-Grease;99986]Are you shitting me? The Naval Academy no longer teaches Celestial Nav? Well I suppose the Local Hour Angle of Aries might mean Happy Hour at a saloon called Aries.[/QUOTE] It’s been gone from there for a good few years. I think they finally did away with it somewhere around '07-'08-ish. I heard about it for the first time in September of '09 so I know it had to be a while before then for it to make its way around to me, since I have nothing to do with the Navy. ---
**Author:** ![Topsail](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b487fb/32.png) [@Topsail](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Topsail)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 7:28am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/are-traditional-navigation-methods-still-appropriate-on-board-modern-ships/9693/15 "2013-02-21T07:28:15Z")
In my early days, we had RDF (Radio Direction Finder), DECCA, LORAN, OMEGA, SAT TRANSIT. We knew Dead Reckoning and Celestial Navigation very well. We were pretty good in meteorology. The industry really needed our competencies. Everything changed in 1991 when I sailed for the first time with the GPS. The captain told me with tears in the eyes; ‘’ We all gonna lose our jobs ‘’. The Times They Are A-Changin … ---
**Author:** ![Sweat-n-Grease](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sweat-n-Grease](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Sweat-n-Grease)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 8:40am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/are-traditional-navigation-methods-still-appropriate-on-board-modern-ships/9693/16 "2013-02-21T08:40:18Z")
[QUOTE=Topsail;100021]In my early days, we had RDF (Radio Direction Finder), DECCA, LORAN, OMEGA, SAT TRANSIT. We knew Dead Reckoning and Celestial Navigation very well. We were pretty good in meteorology. The industry really needed our competencies. Everything changed in 1991 when I sailed for the first time with the GPS. The captain told me with tears in the eyes; ‘’ We all gonna lose our jobs ‘’. The Times They Are A-Changin …[/QUOTE] I would think having a reliable back-up when high tech goes haywire, and it will, you can bet on it for any number of reasons (sabotage, solar flares, space debris, meteoroids come to mind, there are others) should be available. Of course that means the vessel must have a good sextant, charts, and tables. The only draw backs to celestial navigation are overcast skies and rough weather yet mariners done well with celestial for centuries. If you are wondering how an engineer knows celestial navigation I can post I know some mates who are dam good mechanics. All it takes is interest. Oh, and the mates must know celestial navigation. ---
**Author:** ![Sweat-n-Grease](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sweat-n-Grease](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Sweat-n-Grease)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 8:53am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/are-traditional-navigation-methods-still-appropriate-on-board-modern-ships/9693/17 "2013-02-21T08:53:42Z")
It might be a tad embarrassing to have an engineer get a good three star fix for you. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Topsail](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b487fb/32.png) [@Topsail](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Topsail)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 8:59am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/are-traditional-navigation-methods-still-appropriate-on-board-modern-ships/9693/18 "2013-02-21T08:59:27Z")
[QUOTE=Sweat-n-Grease;100041]It might be a tad embarrassing to have an engineer get a good three star fix for you. :D[/QUOTE] You would be more than wecome to do so. ---
**Author:** ![tugsailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a9adbd/32.png) [@tugsailor](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/tugsailor)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 9:09am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/are-traditional-navigation-methods-still-appropriate-on-board-modern-ships/9693/19 "2013-02-21T09:09:24Z")
Sometimes knowledge has intrinsic value, even if it is never actually used for its supposed purpose. Learning celestial navigation improves terrestrial navigation skills. It also builds confidence. SnG makes a good point: Most experienced engineers have also acquired significant deck officer skills. How many deck officers have a clue about how to do anything in the engine room? ---
**Author:** ![Bloodyshitcakes](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.gcaptain.com/bloodyshitcakes/32/181_2.png) [@Bloodyshitcakes](https://forum.gcaptain.com/u/Bloodyshitcakes)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 10:00am UTC](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/are-traditional-navigation-methods-still-appropriate-on-board-modern-ships/9693/20 "2013-02-21T10:00:43Z")
Pop quiz: What is your most important LOP? Anyone? [Next page](https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/are-traditional-navigation-methods-still-appropriate-on-board-modern-ships/9693.md?page=2)