Who has gone from 1600/mate to 3rd unl mate?


#1

I have researched the CFR’s and have come up with the conclusion that I have to work for 3 years as an AB on unlimited tonnage vessels to upgrade from 1600/mate to 3rd mate unl. I do see the 1600ton/master part where it says you can work for a year on vessels over 200GT as Master to upgrade, but thats prob not gonna happen anytime soon. Along with my 1600ton/mate I have a 500/Master, both Oceans. I know this has been debated on here, but Im asking for someone’s insight who has actually made this move…all post the feb1, 2002 date too. Do I have to go back to being an AB for 3 years on UNL vessels to make this move?


#2

No, you only need 1080 days on vessels over 200 grt.


#3

Search for comments about that from jdcavo. He’s a lead policy guy from the USCG that is also a mariner, and frequent advisor here. From what I understand, you can get your 3000 master then sail master over 500(itc) for a year. You’ll probably get a tonnage limitation if all your time is on smaller vessels, though.


#4

[QUOTE=dgillum214;76478]Search for comments about that from jdcavo. He’s a lead policy guy from the USCG that is also a mariner, and frequent advisor here. From what I understand, you can get your 3000 master then sail master over 500(itc) for a year. You’ll probably get a tonnage limitation if all your time is on smaller vessels, though.[/QUOTE]

Thanks…I did see his name around here somewhere.


#5

I had a 500 ton master/1600 ton mate (oceans) in 2006. I was able to upgrade to 3rd unlimited without testing. However I had considerable time as an AB on an unlimited vessel. It also may depend on when you tested for 1600 ton mate.


#6

You will have s tonnage restriction if you don’t have 540 days over 1600 grt though.


#7

[QUOTE=jp7731;76490]I had a 500 ton master/1600 ton mate (oceans) in 2006. I was able to upgrade to 3rd unlimited without testing. However I had considerable time as an AB on an unlimited vessel. It also may depend on when you tested for 1600 ton mate.[/QUOTE]

I tested in 2009 for my 1600/mate and just recently tested for the 500/master. No unlimited sea time though, and all my sea time is 199 gt and under. Im just wondering if Im gonna have to do all 1080 days that are required for a 3rd mate being that all my time is under the 200gt mark?


#8

All time for an unlimited license must be over 200grt. If you want the unlimited license bad enough change companies and get on bigger boats as mate.


#9

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;76501]All time for an unlimited license must be over 200grt. If you want the unlimited license bad enough change companies and get on bigger boats as mate.[/QUOTE]

Roger, that will be in the works next time off. One trip to bayou coming up!


#10

[QUOTE=Seapistol;76492]I tested in 2009 for my 1600/mate and just recently tested for the 500/master. No unlimited sea time though, and all my sea time is 199 gt and under. Im just wondering if Im gonna have to do all 1080 days that are required for a 3rd mate being that all my time is under the 200gt mark?[/QUOTE]

REPLY That really sucks. These licensing seatime rules need to be changed so that the tonnage for the licensing breakpoints is not the same as the breakpoints for inspection and manning requirements. That rule needs to be changed from 200 tons to 190 tons. That would solve most of the problems. There is no functional difference between a 190 ton vessel and a 201 ton vessel. Experience (especially as an officer) on a 199 ton tug handling 5000 ton barges is far superior to experience on a 201 ton yacht mixing drinks and polishing brass.

About the only bright spot is that the USCG will give credit for the I.T.C. tonnage if a vessel has it (I don’t recall which policy letter contains that provision) ---- 199 GRT (domestic tonnage) tug is usually about 499 GT (I.T.C.) If the proposed new licensing rules are ever adopted, the USCG will then give credit for the combined tonnage of the tug and barge on ATBs.

We often hear about how US license requirements are substandard, and that the US had to adopt STCW to come up to international standards, but I have been learning that while some of the well respected foreign licenses may require more classes and have more difficult exams, the seatime requirements are less stringent than ours. The British MCA only requires that seatime “should be on vessels over 25 meters.” The Brits also give seatime for everyday signed on to a vessel, not just days underway. Australia only requires that two-thirds of the days be underway.The Canadian license system is about the same as the Brits, but they accept seatime on vessels over 25 tons toward an unlimited license. I hear that there are training programs in the Philippines where a man can get an AB card, including STCW with only 40 (yes 40, NOT 400) days of seatime. And people think the US license system is substandard?


#11

Three things:

  1. They only give credit for the itc tonnage if you are operating under the manning required by that tonnage. Example, a 1000 grt vessel in US waters operates under limited tonnage standards but when it goes foreign and operates under it’s 5000 gt (itc) it is manned as an unlimited ship. You only get itc credit if you are operating under the itc tonnage, usually only when not in the US.

  2. 499gt (itc) is the same as 199 grt. They consider 500 gt to be the same as 200 grt, just like 3000 gt is the same as 1600 grt.

  3. It is already possible to count barge tonnage when working in an ATB.


#12

[QUOTE=Seapistol;76474]I have researched the CFR’s and have come up with the conclusion that I have to work for 3 years as an AB on unlimited tonnage vessels to upgrade from 1600/mate to 3rd mate unl. I do see the 1600ton/master part where it says you can work for a year on vessels over 200GT as Master to upgrade, but thats prob not gonna happen anytime soon. Along with my 1600ton/mate I have a 500/Master, both Oceans. I know this has been debated on here, but Im asking for someone’s insight who has actually made this move…all post the feb1, 2002 date too. Do I have to go back to being an AB for 3 years on UNL vessels to make this move?[/QUOTE]

I had to go back to AB from 1600 ton master to get the tonnage before they would let me get my third mate unlimited. At the time I got my 1600 ton master, I also could have had a second mate unlimited but the USCG said I could get it any time since I already qualified, passed the test, etc. Then they changed their minds and so I was SCREWED. Had to go back as AB to get third mate, then another years seatime to get second mate. By that time, they were getting ready to stick us with STCW 95 and super expensive un-necessary classes to get CM. So, I had to waste tons of time and money to get CM license and now the USCG in thier wisdom decides to agree with me that expensive classes are really NOT all that important and so not needed anymore. Earlier, I would have said to do whatever you have to do to get your license as quickly as possible. Now, maybe its better to wait and see what the USCG is going to do next (if that is at all possible).
Good luck!


#13

[QUOTE=JP;76582]I had to go back to AB from 1600 ton master to get the tonnage before they would let me get my third mate unlimited. At the time I got my 1600 ton master, I also could have had a second mate unlimited but the USCG said I could get it any time since I already qualified, passed the test, etc. Then they changed their minds and so I was SCREWED. Had to go back as AB to get third mate, then another years seatime to get second mate. By that time, they were getting ready to stick us with STCW 95 and super expensive un-necessary classes to get CM. So, I had to waste tons of time and money to get CM license and now the USCG in thier wisdom decides to agree with me that expensive classes are really NOT all that important and so not needed anymore. Earlier, I would have said to do whatever you have to do to get your license as quickly as possible. Now, maybe its better to wait and see what the USCG is going to do next (if that is at all possible).
Good luck![/QUOTE]

-Did you have any unlimited time at all before you got your 1600 master? And how many days did you have to get after they said you needed more time? Did you need the whole 540 over 1600ton that is required for a 3rd’s ticket?


#14

Not true. The uscg stopped requiring the classes because they lost a lawsuit; the classes they were requiring are not in the CFRs so could not be arbitrarily mandated. They want to make people take the classes but cannot. The plan is to put the requirement for the classes in the CFRs so people have to take them again.


#15

You do NOT need time over 1600 grt. You will get a restricted unlimited license but you will get it and be able to upgrade it while restricted. After that it will take at most 360 days to remove the restriction.


#16

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;76523]…

  1. They only give credit for the itc tonnage if you are operating under the manning required by that tonnage. Example, a 1000 grt vessel in US waters operates under limited tonnage standards but when it goes foreign and operates under it’s 5000 gt (itc) it is manned as an unlimited ship. You only get itc credit if you are operating under the itc tonnage, usually only when not in the US.[/QUOTE]

The international manning generally calls for sufficient crew to have 3 watches. Claiming international manning and a 12-hour watch day might be assumed to be inconsistent. In such cases, additional evidence sucvh as the COI or safe manning document might be needed.


#17

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;76610]Not true. The uscg stopped requiring the classes because they lost a lawsuit; the classes they were requiring are not in the CFRs so could not be arbitrarily mandated. They want to make people take the classes but cannot… [/QUOTE]

Not a lawsuit. Mariners appealed to CG HQ and prevailed. The decision was entirely internal to the Coast Guard.

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;76610]…The plan is to put the requirement for the classes in the CFRs so people have to take them again.[/QUOTE]

The last supplemental notice of proposed rulemaking (SNPRM) published 8/1/2011 did not contain a requirement to take all of the classes previously required. The SNPRM proposed only search and rescue and management of medical care (not PIC) as required (Leadership and Managerial Skill would be required after 12/31/2016).


#18

So get your assessments completed while you are at work aboard ship, rather than wasting vacation time and money as I have done. Think of it as paid training. But then that is an option only if a qualified assessor is aboard and is willing to assist…


#19

I thought having a license was all that was needed to sign off the OICNW assessments, and DE was for the TOAR?


#20

Having a second mate or higher is required. UNLESS you are on a vessel over 200 GT and then it is by 1600 master or better. I can’t find the navic on this, but will keep digging. Then again a search on the topic would probably reveal the info too.