So reality of the NEW KP is revealed for all to see


#21

[QUOTE=LI_Domer;195025]I wouldn’t say I’m Vehemently against KP, but I disagree. The money would be much better spent at State Schools. MMR(SSOP) can ensure we have qualified mariners. There are other more cost effective ways to ensure this and require state academy grads and hawsepipers to maintain unlimited licenses. The 75 million distributed to the state schools and/or as scholarship/grant/incentive funding directly to students is much better. I don’t think most of us here seriously thinks anything less of the actual KP mids. Like any crew member they have to prove their worth. I think most of us judge people as individuals. You should be proud of your accomplishments. KP is an inefficient institution though that is a diversion from where that money could go to better achieve its goal.[/QUOTE]

I thank you for saving me from once again having to shout another KP sycophant down…I am frankly so GODDAMN sick of this issue that I could simply spit.


#22

[QUOTE=c.captain;195039]I thank you for saving me from once again having to shout another KP sycophant down…I am frankly so GODDAMN sick of this issue that I could simply spit.[/QUOTE]

I should have never walked by the computer. I’ll be here till the sun comes up. I have promised my self I would never reveal my pro or con on KP even if someone else was buying. If I state I never heard of KP until about the second week of classes first year, please believe me. I have never been to KP but I have promised my bucket list, I will drive by. I have shipped with KP Cadets while I was on my Cadet Shipping, sailed with them in all ranks, answered to them in the front office, so whether or not I’m entitled to an opinion depends on what bar your in.

!.Any way you splice it the majority of cadets, never had any intention of sailing. They just wanted to go to a service academy, or the FLIDS wanted to go to Mama’s for Sunday lunch. I had a C/Mate for a couple of years that I’d have to think for a long time to come up with something bad to say about him. I recommended him for his 1st Master’s slot and he was a great skipper. He is a KP grad. We had a factory rep joining us for a sea trial. He was telling me how they were classmates and he’s the president of the company. He was under the impression that the KP grads got the shore side jobs because they beat out grads of other schools for their position. In my alumni circle 6 on, 6 off and that money, there wasn’t anyone looking to the beach. I’ve heard many times “oh my wife made me come ashore.” We felt a good sailig position was worth 3 wives. These alumni that run this or that company are what the folks with horsepower testify about. If captains of industry are the flavor of the alumni then never mind the naval academy versus KP these people should be at one of the several world class business schools we have here.

I come from a poor state that, believe it or not, is as proud of our humble academy as the academy is of providing their education in such a beautiful state. It was nothing unusual to see the midshipmen at mass on Sunday in their uniform while home for the weekend. The voters made sure there was never a bond vote for the academy that didn’t pass. I was told by many in my class that they didn’t apply anywhere else. This was their dream school. Every nickle was important, if we only had a quarter of KPs budget. The midshipmen built (classes 42-69) the swimming pool, the football field, with the associated buildings. We felt an investment in our campus. I remember when I first heard the KP cadets running down their school. How could they be beneficiaries of that free education and run it down to strangers. A little loyalty might be deserved. So not only were they not going to sea but a young man who did want to ship was denied a chance. That is my only beef with the KP boys but over the years more than a few folks with influence have been left with an impression similar to mine. I feel bad over the evolution of things lately. Aside from the times I’ve said under my breath " Could this nonsense happen anywhere but KP?" I read the first couple of end of the year sex reports. To this day I still wonder at the investment of time and money our government puts into reports when a couple of phone calls should suffice. American Seamen are not the predators these reports would like us to accept. This whole incident reeks of dishonesty. I know that even though it makes no sense to you or me, it makes perfect sense to someone. No one separates KP from the rest of our fleet. For that reason alone this “death of 1000 cuts” should be halted by Mrs. McConnell immediately.

The training that the KP cadets will be receiving from the Navy is not up to the standards the industry expects them to have under their belts when they receive their licenses. I was stuck on a sea project question about ground tackle. From the Capt. to the mess boy no one ever heard of such a rig. Merchantmen use Bowditch, I’m surprised the article mentions it. I used to have to ask the Senior Quartermaster for H.O.9. The Navy uses Chapman’s. It’s not enough and has errors. Even if the Navy is serious about assuming Cadet’s training they couldn’t. These kids will be going back to school thinking a ship should have 17 dedicated fork lift drivers, a table for the 3rd’s a table for the 2nd’s. This is what it’s like on an unrep oiler, the ship type they’re suggesting. I’ve listened to USNA mid’n. speaking of 130-150 of them on a carrier. It’s not an important time for them. You have to remember that after 4 years they barely know the earth is round and they send them to Newport where they actually start with what side the red and green sidelights are on. The cadets deserve more. There was a time when the Navy was willing to take constructive, genuinely given advise to make them smarter. They even took notes. In those days they knew nothing about freight and they knew they knew nothing about freight. Today they still know nothing about moving freight but they’re convinced no one in the Merchant Marine has anything left to teach them. It’ll take a year the cadets don’t have to wash what they learned on a Navy ship out of their memories. If it came down to it they’d be much better off on cutters.


#23

I’ve read all this twice and just wanted to tell ya’all I’ve no desire to participate but I wanted to ask: if they got within 4 miles of guam… well, I think they could see the land then right? so that was ok. Then there is that story of a young couple that sailed from Hawaii to Palmyra and made land fall and she’d never used a sextant ever!! … too bad what they did to that British couple when they landed though. I hope he’s still in jail!


#24

[QUOTE=jimrr;195152]I’ve read all this twice and just wanted to tell ya’all I’ve no desire to participate but I wanted to ask: if they got within 4 miles of guam… well, I think they could see the land then right? so that was ok. Then there is that story of a young couple that sailed from Hawaii to Palmyra and made land fall and she’d never used a sextant ever!! … too bad what they did to that British couple when they landed though. I hope he’s still in jail![/QUOTE]

Buck Walker? I hope he’s not still in jail. Man died in 2010. What has this got to do with anything?


#25

[QUOTE=CEPEMS88;195022]I recently joined this forum and after browsing the KP section have found there’s a faction within this forum that is vehemently anti Kings Point. …Additionally there is no way to force them to sail after graduation. Every year KP graduates 200 licensed mariners WHO can all be FORCED (thus the military commission) to sail if need be. Ultimately the only way the government and military can GUARENTEE we have an adequate pool of mariners, independent of other sources, is by keeping KP open. … the above is the primary reason why the academy is in operation and will continue to be for many years to come. As an FYI I got this info from a Naval Officer who works In the Strategic Mobility and Seabasing Branch at the Pentagon[/QUOTE]

Poppycock. I went to a state school and was “forced” to apply for a USNR commission in return for taking a small MARAD tuition subsidy. I believe it was $1200 a year in the day … Applying wasn’t even a question. We just did it because it was an upfront part of the deal and we were grateful for the opportunity to get a little help getting a good education. I have no recollection of anyone complaining about it either.

As for the required number of licensed mariners, state and private schools can clearly produce the required personnel for the foreseeable future, and then some. Take it from an industry veteran that actually hires people, not a Naval Officer in Arlington.

PS - I have no dog in the KP / no KP fight and couldn’t care less if it stays or goes. Everything you need to know about your shipmate can be found within the man or woman. And the most capable types I ever met at sea and in the office seem to have career paths solidly based in hawsepipe reality.


#26

[QUOTE=+A465B;195233]Take it from an industry veteran that actually hires people, not a Naval Officer in Arlington.[/QUOTE]

Your above sentence is at the core of my original post. The people making the decisions about KP and the deep sea fleet in this country aren’t industry experts. They’re the admirals, generals and other government folks in DC who only care about the merchant marine insofar as it’s a necessity for our military to function.

I agree with you that the state schools could provide the required amount of mariners needed for national defense and security, especially if they forced all the license people to take a USNR commission like they did when you were in school. It’s about having an asset they have 100% control over. Tell me why does the Army keep West Point open when they could easily get all their officers through ROTC and OCS for a cheaper cost?


#27

[QUOTE=CEPEMS88;195249]Tell me why does the Army keep West Point open when they could easily get all their officers through ROTC and OCS for a cheaper cost?[/QUOTE]

Do you seriously have to ask this question? It’s because of “tradition” and the big ring-knocker fraternity that exists amongst all the service academies. I think MOST military officer come from OUTSIDE the academies today–but there is still that special spot at the top for the ring knockers that know the secret handshake. It’s a shame so much money is wasted, the acad and especially the post-grad (like war-college, etc) are just a big circle jerks.


#28

Let’s keep KP open but change the service requirement. Six year of active duty with MSC on a ship. You still keep the option of going active duty in one of the other services upon graduation. None of this “reserve” BS. They can have their taxpayer funded education, but will be required to go to sea. This would help with MSC’s chronic crewing shortages. I’m not certain off the top of my head, but I recall that no other federal academy has less than a five year active duty requirement upon graduation.


#29

[QUOTE=Louisd75;195627]Let’s keep KP open but change the service requirement. Six year of active duty with MSC on a ship. You still keep the option of going active duty in one of the other services upon graduation. None of this “reserve” BS. They can have their taxpayer funded education, but will be required to go to sea. This would help with MSC’s chronic crewing shortages. I’m not certain off the top of my head, but I recall that no other federal academy has less than a five year active duty requirement upon graduation.[/QUOTE]

Been a long time since my graduation but a quick look see shows graduates must:

Maintain your license for 5 years AND
Maintain your USNR commission for 5 years AND
Sail for 5 years after graduation ideally on US Flag Vessels - with certain alternates acceptable. Like if you go active duty for 5 years you obviously don’t have the reserve requirement and it counts as your employment component from what I can read.

Obilgation summary

Haven’t found any stats yet on how effective compliance is with these requirements.

Given the current state of the industry I’d be surprised if MSC isn’t already the source of most sea going employment for these graduates these days.

Is there something magic about 6 years vs 5 years in your mind?


#30

MSC is not hiring officers. Right now the wait for a ship for third mates is five to six months. Second mates are waiting four or five months. First officers are waiting a few months. The engineering side is just as bad for third engineers. Ships have augment officers forced on them just to get them out of the Norfolk and San Diego pools.

I wouldn’t call this a crew shortage.


#31

[QUOTE=KPChief;195629]Been a long time since my graduation but a quick look see shows graduates must:

Maintain your license for 5 years AND
Maintain your USNR commission for 5 years AND
Sail for 5 years after graduation ideally on US Flag Vessels - with certain alternates acceptable. Like if you go active duty for 5 years you obviously don’t have the reserve requirement and it counts as your employment component from what I can read.

Obilgation summary

Haven’t found any stats yet on how effective compliance is with these requirements.

Given the current state of the industry I’d be surprised if MSC isn’t already the source of most sea going employment for these graduates these days.

Is there something magic about 6 years vs 5 years in your mind?[/QUOTE]

In my day, I believe that the requirements were 6 years if one sailed four months a year down to 4 years if one sailed 6 months each year. I really didn’t care. Shipping was tough, but I managed to get 7 to 9 months each year when I was sailing. . .


#32

[QUOTE=KPChief;195629]…Is there something magic about 6 years vs 5 years in your mind?[/QUOTE]

The requirement is currently 6 years, see 46 CFR 310.58(a).


#33

[QUOTE=jdcavo;195668]The requirement is currently 6 years, see 46 CFR 310.58(a).[/QUOTE]

Thanks. Guess Chao hasn’t gotten around to updating the MARAD website yet.


#34

[QUOTE=Louisd75;195627]Let’s keep KP open … [/QUOTE]

Nah, let’s not. The “service academy” designation is a marketing ploy and until the government commits to building a US flag merchant marine large enough to require public money for ab initio training (and if that condition ever existed again, the shipping companies would provide cadet training) KP is just another boondoggle and a huge waste of public money that serves no purpose except for massaging the egos of a few ringknockers and their parents.


#35

I just came back from taking a class at the MEBA school and noted there were a bunch of young faces there. A number were from KP as well as the other schools.


#36

[QUOTE=KPChief;195629]Been a long time since my graduation but a quick look see shows graduates must:

Maintain your license for 5 years AND[\quote]

Which means nothing since a license is valid for five years. You still have to meet the physical requirements for your next point:

Maintain your USNR commission for 5 years AND[\quote]

Yep, they’re the only federal service academy where this is even an option. Every other federal academy expects active duty service in return for a free education.

[quote]Sail for 5 years after graduation ideally on US Flag Vessels - with certain alternates acceptable. Like if you go active duty for 5 years you obviously don’t have the reserve requirement and it counts as your employment component from what I can read.

Obilgation summary

Haven’t found any stats yet on how effective compliance is with these requirements.

My internet is crappy on the ship, but this has been discussed previously on this forum. Essentially, there has historically been little oversight to ensure that the sailing obligation and reserve obligations were being met by the graduates.

Given the current state of the industry I’d be surprised if MSC isn’t already the source of most sea going employment for these graduates these days.

Is there something magic about 6 years vs 5 years in your mind?

Mr. Cavo has already addressed the CFR requirement. The majority of other federal academies requires a six year obligation, some specialty programs, such as pilots, require more service due to the extensive training required and also to retain talent for a little longer before losing it to the civilian sector. One could argue that there is a similar circumstance for licensed mariners.

I’ve heard of MSC’s hiring freeze. I’ve also got several friends currently stuck on boats awaiting relief. One was recently stuck for eight months waiting relief. That doesn’t really sound like a manpower surplus to me, perhaps more of a problem with the crewing department.


#37

[QUOTE=Louisd75;195925]I’ve heard of MSC’s hiring freeze. I’ve also got several friends currently stuck on boats awaiting relief. One was recently stuck for eight months waiting relief. That doesn’t really sound like a manpower surplus to me, perhaps more of a problem with the crewing department.[/QUOTE]

Whatever gave you the quaint idea that MSC gives a rat’s ass about efficiency?