Rendering of the new National Security Multi-Mission Vessel


#41

I thought no human being was meant to stay awake or be able to concentrate on their duties for that long. Why would you promote the torture of theses poor cadets in such a gruesome manner?


#42

The academies should restructure their programs so that cadets receive AB and QMED after the first year. Work experience as an AB ,and as QMED , should become part of every cadet program.


#43

We have a deck cadet on my tug right now. We normally get engine cadets and it’s easy to find stuff for them to do but a deck cadet is a different story. We have him observing in the wheelhouse, doing chart corrections, learning how to handle and throw lines, chipping, painting, and general assisting where needed. He does what’s asked with no complaint and seems happy to learn.

I also think that cadets need to spend dedicated time on deck. In my opinion they aren’t ready to lead the unlicensed crew until they have actually done that work themselves. Some of them need to be brought down to earth so they don’t make asses of themselves right off the bat.


#44

[QUOTE=tugsailor;180542]The academies should restructure their programs so that cadets receive AB and QMED after the first year. Work experience as an AB ,and as QMED , should become part of every cadet program.[/QUOTE]
I’m pretty sure the CFRs dont allow this we do take a CMA AB test at the end of cruise 1 but im pretty sure its useless. The work experience part we do get to a certain degree though we have our ship ops classes were the freshmen are like OS and the upper class are ABs


#45

you bayou Button mashers handle it, no problem for a trainee not expected to make decisions!


#46

[QUOTE=z-drive;180469]How about modern version of a 500-600’ general cargo you see in trade moving windmills etc with one less hatch, for increased accommodations/deckhouse.

[/QUOTE]

Like this one?

Or this one?

Intermarine has a few like this, including the OCEAN GIANT above. Most of these ships do have extra cabins for supernumeraries. . . I know, I have used them in the past and may again in the future.

      • Updated - - -

[QUOTE=c.captain;180517]like what exactly? bring the pilot up to the bridge or taking an inventory of the bosun’s locker? they should have to stand at the wheel and work on deck right along with the seamen. In fact, an apprentice should be an OS in their first half year at sea and an AB during their second and be paid accordingly. Of course, the unions would howl that cadets are stealing work from their rank and file. Here the special interests would kill any meaningful reform to protect their turf and thus there are never any changes to improve a lousy system.[/QUOTE]

I can tell you that during my cadet shipping, I either worked right alongside the day 3rd engineer, or would assume those duties on a couple of ships that didn’t have a day 3rd. Of course, not at first on my first ship. . . I would often be assigned to a watch, usually the 4 - 8, since that is when most of the boiler work is done, including blowing tubes and testing water. . . and yeah, there were some in the unlicensed that complained that I was taking away their OT. . . and to be honest, when it came time to hand clean the superheaters on the LESLIE LYKES, I was certainly not given a choice NOT to. . .


#47

[QUOTE=tugsailor;180542]The academies should restructure their programs so that cadets receive AB and QMED after the first year. Work experience as an AB ,and as QMED , should become part of every cadet program.[/QUOTE]

Well, I know that in the past, at KP, that does happen. One of my classmates had to do the second half of his senior year over because of academics. . . and I have to take part of the blame for providing the distracting booze. . . yet I digress. . .Since he was not at school for the first half of his senior year, he was issued a QMED Z Card and sailed as an electrician for the bulk of that six months and did graduate and sail.


#48

Academy programs and the enabling CFRs should be changed to produce students with both AB and QMED after the first year. Frankly, it does not take long to learn to use a mop, broom, paint brush, and grease gun. The academic part of becoming an AB or QMED is at about the 8th grade level. All students should receive at least six months experience sailing as AB and at least six months sailing as QMED on workng commercial ships before graduating with either a 3rd Mate or 3rd AE.

There should be a six month post graduate program where a 3rd AE can also obtain 3rd Mate. It might take a one year post graduate program for a 3rd Mate to also become a 3rd AE. There should be a reasonable and efficient method for these crossovers.


#49

I do totally agree that they should get AB/QMED earlier. Some fixes to help streamline all this is that they should/could do BST during Indoc, instead of all the useless stuff they do. You’d have to take the class for Lifeboatman and put that in the first year in order for them to get AB earlier though. It might be a lot easier to get AB on the license after the 2nd year. But I’m all for getting it put on the credentials asap while in school.


#50

anyway, go get back to what type of vessels should constitute the next generation of training ships for the various state academies, I do not believe the proposed design is what the nation needs since they are not a multimission vessel but instead limited to only carrying persons which frankly is not a defense priority. The only case I know of a schoolship being put into military service was the EMPIRE STATE when it moved those soldiers out of theater in Somalia after it was deemed the airport there was not secure to allow MAC flights in or out. Such a rare occasion could just as easily be accomplished with a ro/pax ferry plus what of all the HSC’s the Navy now has? They too can move people in large numbers albeit not long distances. As far as disaster response is concerned, the Navy has many valuable assets already in its inventory to call upon which it currently does to good effect. Between the hospital ships, amphib vessels and the RRF, it can get aid to where it is needed very effectively which it has proven it can and does do when the call goes out. These proposed ships would give us nothing we don’t already possess.

If the American taxpayer is going to fund the building of new training ships let them at least be genuine defense assets vis. be able to carry DoD surge sealift cargo when required even if that function is not used in peacetime. Further why does each school need their own vessel? Certainly two or at the most three are all that would be required if they were shared between the schools and kept sailing throughout the year instead of sitting dockside for berthing purposes.

sorry to burst your bubble John, but the ship in the rendering would just be more taxpayer funded welfare to NASSCO. AKER, Marinette or some other builder at I am sure close to $200M each. At least take the lower cost option to convert a modern foreign built ship to a training vessel until such day arrives that the US is running a Federal budget surplus and can afford the luxury of building new.

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#51

[QUOTE=c.captain;180563]Certainly two or at the most three are all that would be required if they were shared between the schools and kept sailing throughout the year instead of sitting dockside for berthing purposes.[/QUOTE]

The problem is that part of a cadets required training takes place on the ship dockside. They stand watches and more importantly do maintenance on them during the school year. This gives them a lot of the experience that they would be getting if they sailed as an AB/QMED.


#52

As someone who went through a state academy system, let me share a few thoughts.

  1. I don’t believe any of the state academies could afford to operate pure training vessels on their own without Govt support, ownership, etc.
  2. Although a strong case can be made for every school not needing its own ship, the individual vessels do build camaraderie, teamwork, and esprit de corps. Or at least they should.
  3. I’m certainly not a CFR lawyer like some here but having dedicated training ships is what allows concentrated, consolidated, training environs to among other things count sea time at a rate of 2 days to 1. Cadet Observers are an exception. It is having an operating floating ship along with dedicated classroom instruction and real time observations and rotations that make the system work.
  4. Merchant and military navies for centuries operated both an apprentice program and dedicated school ships. Time has demonstrated a need for both types of training. Otherwise, why have any schools of higher learning at all? Why not have all training and education be done on the apprenticeship model?
  5. Finally while I don’t think the training ships need to be in constant motion to have value, I do think having DoD/MSC surge cargo capacity capabilities would indeed be an asset. While I am in full support of the state academies receiving new vessels (and have signed the petition); like the LCS, I’m not sure this is the one they wanted or needed.

Thanks for giving me a little hatchcover to stand on. I’ll take my flogging now.


#53

They have been used for housing after natural disasters, Katrina comes to mind. But no excuse to build them.

The whole system should be tweaked to eliminate the need for dockside training etc.


#54

Are training ships allowed to run public paying-passengers and cargo?

With an idea like c.captain suggested, Aranui 3 & 5, couldn’t the ship run year round with passengers and cargo to offset construction costs and fund new builds? Could this idea be partially run by students obtaining a degree in logistics and business?

Would it be fair to the commercial side of the industry to allow a government owned vessel to operate in the trade of cargo and passengers?


#55

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;180564]The problem is that part of a cadets required training takes place on the ship dockside. They stand watches and more importantly do maintenance on them during the school year. This gives them a lot of the experience that they would be getting if they sailed as an AB/QMED.[/QUOTE]

The programs should be modernized with more emphasis on paid practical training. Rules can be, and ought to be, changed. The academies should start the first year right after 4th of July weekend with BST, Lifeboat, Advanced Firefighting, and so on.

I do not accept that months of continuous dockside “sea time” has much value. Even if it did, it’s too costly for the taxpayers. Part of the way to address the high cost of education is to provide students with good wage paying commercial experience after the first year. Also, actual commercial seagoing experience would help weed out the people who do not want to go to sea. It would also prepare the kids that do not want to return for a second year with the option of sailing AB or QMED.


#56

the most interesting thing i hadn’t thought of is what LI domer said about the first year students. There are a shitload that later bail. How to handle that issue, I don’t know. but making them go to sea on a commercial ship right away would prevent some from even coming in.

I can’t believe some of the fuckups i went to school with who after 4 years hadn’t done shit and couldnt graduate until they had completed a ton of sea time. too busy on the sailing team in the summer…


#57

[QUOTE=PineappleOranges;180567]Would it be fair to the commercial side of the industry to allow a government owned vessel to operate in the trade of cargo and passengers?[/QUOTE]

I do not believe a government owned ship can operate carrying commercial cargoes but they certainly can carrying cargoes for the Defense Department hence why I keep saying that to pay for these new training ships they should be constructed with the ability to carry DoD cargoes and actually be used for that purpose to offset their construction and operating costs plus give the maritime students a more valuable hands on education in “real” ship operations instead of a floating summer seascout "camp"us

I did not have a “schoolship” experience so do not know what being on one is like but I cannot believe that it resembles much of how any commercial ship operates…especially if the “regiment” goes to sea with the ship?


#58

To be honest it is a ludicrous, embarassing, tinpot regiment run highschool at sea where you get about maybe 10 good days of training out of a 2-3 month stint at sea. Its laughable bullcrap that must be tolerated to graduate and get your license so you can actually train to be a competent officer on a real ship.


#59

The instructors range from excellent to laughing stock, with the vast majority being worthless throwaways who couldnt cut it sailing in the commercial fleet so they come to the academies to “teach”.


#60

I like the idea of multi-use training ships that can take the academy cadets to sea, and also activate to respond to disasters. I agree they should feature both accom blocks for cadets, as well as usable cargo space and gear to work it. They could do little cargo runs to Diego or Yokusaka for cadet cruises with DOD supplies, and when activated for disaster response, bring in recovery supplies and provide housing for aid workers and perhaps even a few hospital beds.