Rendering of the new National Security Multi-Mission Vessel


#21

[QUOTE=c.captain;180507]4. why are cadets not shipped out as an officer apprentice with real working duties aboard as opposed to observer status?[/QUOTE]

The last I knew cadets did work and have duties, they didn’t just observe.


#22

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;180515]The last I knew cadets did work and have duties, they didn’t just observe.[/QUOTE]

like what exactly? bring the pilot up to the bridge or taking an inventory of the bosun’s locker? they should have to stand at the wheel and work on deck right along with the seamen. In fact, an apprentice should be an OS in their first half year at sea and an AB during their second and be paid accordingly. Of course, the unions would howl that cadets are stealing work from their rank and file. Here the special interests would kill any meaningful reform to protect their turf and thus there are never any changes to improve a lousy system.


#23

here is an example of the type of training ship I can envision but larger and with ro/ro capabilities.

such a ship would be constantly moving carrying DoD cargoes all over the globe. All it would take is a change in federal policy which generally holds to not using RRF ships in peacetime to appease shipowners. There is no statute that I know of that prohibits the government from carrying their own cargo and MSC used to maintain a fleet of ships to do this until it decided to privatize moving cargo beginning in the 1980’s. I remember when the METEOR, COMET, MERCURY and JUPITER were all on regular MSC runs.


#24

yes, thanks for posting my ship idea!

They could be used for short sea shipping domestically. Clean up the highways. Not economical on their own but I’m sure they would be able to cover some expenses moving boxes or whatever PLUS pass on whatever marad spends on the school ships in a subsidy, that they wouldn’t be in the negative any more than already?


#25

[QUOTE=c.captain;180517]like what exactly?[/QUOTE]

Chip, paint, work cargo, stand a bridge watch, do chart corrections, help with safety inspections, etc.

[QUOTE=c.captain;180517]In fact, an apprentice should be an OS in their first half year at sea and an AB during their second and be paid accordingly.[/QUOTE]

I don’t see your distinction, both are deckhands doing deck work. They should spend 6 months on deck and six months on the bridge as a junior mate or training mate.


#26

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;180520]Chip, paint, work cargo, stand a bridge watch, do chart corrections, help with safety inspections, etc.[/QUOTE]

We get cadets often and they are a huge help, their contributions are much appreciated and they learn a lot. Having the cadets work without having problems with the union is something that is easily managed.


#27

[QUOTE=z-drive;180519]yes, thanks for posting my ship idea! [/QUOTE]

you’re welcome…that vessel is actually in the trades supplying the islands of French Polynesia as well as carrying passengers but that ideal vessel we both want would be very similar

They could be used for short sea shipping domestically. Clean up the highways. Not economical on their own but I’m sure they would be able to cover some expenses moving boxes or whatever PLUS pass on whatever marad spends on the school ships in a subsidy, that they wouldn’t be in the negative any more than already?

well that would be the government getting into commercial shipping which then goes head to head with other operators and becomes dicey but when these ships would carry the government’s own cargo it becomes much easier to get past those who would cry foul. What I envision is that these combination training and cargo ships would actually be operated by the maritime schools themselves with the cadets forming the unlicensed crew which completely eliminates that labor cost.

This concept could be accomplished with any suitable vessel already in the RRF by adding the additional accomodations and training spaces as needed or could be done by acquiring additional ships into the RRF. If all disparate factions in the government (MSC, MarAd, and USTRANSCOM) got together and apportioned a percentage of all the DoD cargoes to these ships then it would become a major win/win for all stakeholders however that means competing agencies cooperating and we all know that cooperation between agencies is unheard of these days.

.


#28

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;180521]We get cadets often and they are a huge help, their contributions are much appreciated and they learn a lot. Having the cadets work without having problems with the union is something that is easily managed.[/QUOTE]

all fine and good yet they don’t fill any position in the COI however why not? Why can’t a cadet fill an AB or OS or QMED or wiper position on a ship actually working? Why must that only be the case on a schoolship? What other maritime nations even use schoolships anymore to train merchant marine officers? At least ships whose sole purpose it training and nothing more? Maybe a couple sail training ships but any others?


#29

They dont need to be operated by the gummint but in a charter deal where someone can make a reasonable profit operating them. I have no numbers to work with nor the expertise to do anything with them if I did but if you had a nearly free ship to move cargo with I bet you could make it work coastwise. There’s no coastwise competition for containers.


#30

[QUOTE=c.captain;180523]all fine and good yet they don’t fill any position in the COI however why not? Why can’t a cadet fill an AB or OS or QMED or wiper position on a ship actually working?[/QUOTE]

Why does it make a difference whether they fill a COI billet or not? They still work and they still learn. It’s usually better for their training if they aren’t in a necessary role. For example, if they are filling a deck hand position then they need to be doing those duties at all times and can never learn other aspects of a given evolution than the deck.


#31

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;180526]Why does it make a difference whether they fill a COI billet or not? They still work and they still learn. It’s usually better for their training if they aren’t in a necessary role. For example, if they are filling a deck hand position then they need to be doing those duties at all times and can never learn other aspects of a given evolution than the deck.[/QUOTE]

you say tom"A"to and I say tom"AH"to but I still think if our young lads and lasses had genuine duties necessary to the daily operation of the vessel they would become better seamen before they become little baby officers. Plus I am all for cutting expenses and if these training/cargo ships would get started then not having to pay for redundant unlicensed seafarers on them would go a long way to paying their cost.

Here is a question…how many unlicensed seamen make up the complement of the various schoolships? Are not the cadets filling those positions?


#32

[QUOTE=c.captain;180523]all fine and good yet they don’t fill any position in the COI however why not? Why can’t a cadet fill an AB or OS or QMED or wiper position on a ship actually working? Why must that only be the case on a schoolship? What other maritime nations even use schoolships anymore to train merchant marine officers? At least ships whose sole purpose it training and nothing more? Maybe a couple sail training ships but any others?[/QUOTE]

I would think there would be a lot more to learn assisting the ship’s officers then spending all day on oiler or AB duties. Besides, people going to the schools want a degree and a license in four years, not many are going to be willing to sail unlicensed although it might make a few of them a little more humble.


#33

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;180530]I would think there would be a lot more to learn assisting the ship’s officers then spending all day on oiler or AB duties. Besides, people going to the schools want a degree and a license in four years, not many are going to be willing to sail unlicensed although it might make a few of them a little more humble.[/QUOTE]

please see my previous post


#34

[QUOTE=c.captain;180531]please see my previous post[/QUOTE]

I don’t really have an opinion on how officers should be trained, I was responing to the idea that cadets were just observers. It seems absurd to think nothing useful can be found for them to do on a ship. I’ve never sailed on a ship with a workload that low.


#35

It’s absolutely essential to sail as an unlicensed seaman both deck or engine, regardless of whether you’re filling a COI position. The stuff I learned as a green “extra” deckhand I keep with me today. Not necessarily gain all the required sea-days but definitely one third if not half of those certainly should be as OS/wiper. Another third as AB or equivalent if there’s really a difference, and a final third as an apprentice, shadowing each mate/engineer, stand a 12-hour day from 8-2000. Chart corrections, safety gear checks, paperwork minion.


#36

Having gone to school, and sailed on the school ships, I’ve never felt like I suffered from a lack of experience. Obviously there’s plenty more to gain, but I wouldn’t advocate having kids take OS and wiper slots. Plus remember, even if a school only graduates 100-200 3M/3AEs the freshman class was originally significantly larger. We would need hundreds of additional OS/AB job slots just to accommodate cadets. Another thought, I consider myself pretty progressive but some of you are advocating actually government controlled commercial ships, socialism. The current cadet observer system is great. It would be better if we could offer companies better subsidies to take cadets and pay the cadets more. I’m on my phone but I’m definitely going to write up a fuller response later.


#37

[QUOTE=c.captain;180529]Here is a question…how many unlicensed seamen make up the complement of the various schoolships? Are not the cadets filling those positions?[/QUOTE]

I’m fairly certain all the required COI positions are filled by experienced professionals. I know the State of Main carries a few ABs, at least. Besides, they don’t get their AB credential until after they graduate.


#38

yes, all COI positions are filled by non-students


#39

Although academy training ships get all sorts of special leeway. I don’t think the cadets are technically filling the AB billets. Although to my memory they were they did cover all lookout and helmsman duties.
In regards to cadets on commercial vessels I agree 100% this is the best experience for them. But the experience they have ranges wildly due to the nature of the ships trade patterns, service and the willingness of their officers to train, share responsibility, and challenge the cadets ability.
As professional Mariners we are responsible to train and impart our wisdom on cadets. I view it as our opportunity to improve their learning experience. I have witnessed cadets that didn’t warrant the effort of the ships officers and that is too bad for everyone. So the right thing to do is fire the cadet and let them fail, spend and extra year, whatever their consequences are. That is on them if we have done our job setting expectations and goals which they have chosen not to meet or seek out assistance to be successful.


#40

[QUOTE=z-drive;180536]yes, all COI positions are filled by non-students[/QUOTE]

Not always. For some training ships, cadets are allowed to meet the manning requirements for Able Seamen.

[QUOTE=Shipnc’s;180538]I don’t think the cadets are technically filling the AB billets…[/QUOTE]

For some of the training ships, they are.