[QUOTE=ombugge;172648]Calm down. Don’t get your blood pressure up. Thanks for the advice, I’ll look it up.[/QUOTE]
Why bother? USA is a special snowflake, don’t disturb the snow.
[QUOTE=Kraken;172655]Why bother? USA is a special snowflake, don’t disturb the snow.[/QUOTE]
yeah right…special snowflake my ass! How many US vessels working in the North Sea with their US crews on them?
[QUOTE=c.captain;172657]yeah right…special snowflake my ass! How many US vessels working in the North Sea with their US crews on them?[/QUOTE]
Not because of rules. It’s hardly any Danish, English or Dutch offshore vessels in the North Sea either. If it makes you feel better.
[QUOTE=c.captain;172657]yeah right…special snowflake my ass! How many US vessels working in the North Sea with their US crews on them?[/QUOTE]
I would say there are none and precociously few Americans working on the boats that is there.
There are no restrictions on US Citizens working there however, as long as they have the qualifications required by the Flag State and the right attitude. Are you looking for work?
PS> Please note that I did NOT make any silly remark about snowflakes and your Lilly white ass. That’s restrain I would say.
[QUOTE=c.captain;172637]NO I WILL NOT!..do your own heavy lifting. Use the forum search function and input “Outer Continental Shelf Lands Act” (43 U.S.C. 1301)
we don’t take kindly to the lazy here[/QUOTE]
I followed your advise but the search words you suggested just brought me back here to you post.
I then googled it and found the dry words of the Law you mentioned, but nothing new, or about foreign flag vessels in GOM.
Any other logical search word I tried on this forum also did not bring me to any of the dozens of threads discussing the subject.
Maybe you can find in your kind heart to enlighten me??
PS> I’m not computer illiterate and I do know how to use the search functions, here and in other forums.
[QUOTE=ombugge;172843]Maybe you can find in your kind heart to enlighten me??[/QUOTE]
fine…try this link. This information is old but still generally valid
[QUOTE=c.captain;172845]fine…try this link. This information is old but still generally valid[/QUOTE]
I have read most of your posts and the Comments from others. This is obviously old hat but as you say, mostly still valid.
Yes, there are a lot of foreign flag boats working in the US GoM and they keep their foreign officers and crew to a large extent.
As you point out, many of the vessels working there are Norwegian built, owned and flagged, but most are registered in Norwegian International Shipregister NIS) which is different to the National Register (NOR). In fact most of them are designed by local companies, built and owned in my home town Aalesund and the district around. Most of the machinery and equipment on board are also developed and manufactured there as well.
Ships under NIS register are exempt from having even Norwegian Master and the Officers and crew can be from anywhere. The requirement is that they hire fully qualified personnel per Norwegian rules and regulation, which is basically IMO STCW’10 with some additional requirements.
There is NO rules to say that a qualified American cannot be hired, whether the vessel work in the GoM or anywhere else in the world. (NOR is different)
You may ask yourself why you can find British, Russians, Polish Filipinos and others as officers on Norwegian vessels in the GoM, but very few if any Americans? There is no restrictions to stop you from joining as long as you are qualified and has the right attitude.
On all the large Crane Vessels (SSCV)working worldwide you will find Malaysians Ibans as Riggers, regardless of flag. (McDermott has used them worldwide for the last 30 years or more)
Why?? Because they are hard working, doesn’t complain about everything and are very skilled in their job.
It is no problem finding something wrong with anything, much harder to find a solution. Sounds to me like you guys can find a problem with a week of only Sundays.
You should instead ask yourselves; What can be done to get US flag vessels and equipment back in the GoM, or get US seafarers to work on the foreign ships that is there in the meantime.
As I have said before, when I started in the Offshore industry back in the 1970s, EVERYTHING was American everywhere and the expertise belonged to US companies and personnel. What can you do to regain that superiority, not just complaining about them forn’ers??
[QUOTE=ombugge;172847]There is NO rules to say that a qualified American cannot be hired, whether the vessel work in the GoM or anywhere else in the world. (NOR is different)[/QUOTE]
Finding out the job exists and where to apply is the first hurdle. The owners seen to not want Americans so they don’t tell us about available jobs.
[QUOTE=ombugge;172847]On all the large Crane Vessels (SSCV)working worldwide you will find Malaysians Ibans as Riggers, regardless of flag. (McDermott has used them worldwide for the last 30 years or more)
Why?? Because they are hard working, doesn’t complain about everything and are very skilled in their job.[/QUOTE]
I’m sure the fact they will work for a significantly lower day rate also has a lot to do with it.
In today’s market there is not likely to be too many jobs vacant, since these companies have to lay up boats too. They try to keep their regular employees, no matter what nationality as far as possible.
If you want to try your luck you can find the name of the vessels working in the GoM by doing some basic research on AIS. With the Owner’s name their contact details will be available on the net. Drop them your CV and you may be lucky.
If you are serious, PM me and I’ll give you some names to contact, but I obviously do not give any recommendations.
I’m sure the fact they will work for a significantly lower day rate also has a lot to do with it.
There are cheaper riggers available locally most places, but all the major Contractors have learnt and are willing to pay air fare for Ibans to travel worldwide, incl. to USA and the North Sea.
One “good old boy” Barge Superintendent in McDermott I have known for years was going to the North of Norway to lay pipe with the LB 200, just south of the Arctic circle in the summer season. He stated; “I’ll go, but I’ll take MY Ibans with me”.
When they returned I asked the headman how he liked Norway. His only complain; “There were no nights”
If you don’t know about the Ibans, google it.
In most of the world even most small vessel mariners have unlimited licenses. The US appears to be unique in in making it so difficult for small vessel mariners to get unlimited tonnage licenses. A lot of people in the US do not understand a US license that is 1600 tons grt / 3000 tons gt. No one outside the US understands it. They assume it means that you are not really qualified for 3000 tons because of some defect in your training and you are restricted to 1600 tons. The US dual “national” and STCW endorsements completely confuse them.
Most of the foreign jobs that an American can get pay much less than we make in the US.
[QUOTE=ombugge;172850]In today’s market there is not likely to be too many jobs vacant, since these companies have to lay up boats too. They try to keep their regular employees, no matter what nationality as far as possible.[/QUOTE]
They don’t advertise their jobs during the good times either, unless it’s to satisfy the requirements of the waiver that they look for Americans, in which case they either never respond or offer $250 a day as master then claim there are no Americans to do it because no one will work for that.
[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;172863]They don’t advertise their jobs during the good times either, unless it’s to satisfy the requirements of the waiver that they look for Americans, in which case they either never respond or offer $250 a day as master then claim there are no Americans to do it because no one will work for that.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know the pay scale and other conditions in the GoM these days and whether it is day rated or permanent employment on monthly salary, paid both for On and Off period. Wages for Norwegians working on Norwegian owned vessels, (whether NIS or other flags like Isle of Man, Gibraltar or whatever) are pretty good and the conditions are better than for anybody else, with permanent employment and full coverage by the Norwegian welfare system, which is second to none.
If you are seriously interested in finding out about possibilities to work on Norwegian vessel in the GoM, or anywhere else, you need to contact the Owners, don’t expect them to advertise vacancies in the US. Find out who is who and drop them your CV. Don’t expect miracles in today’s market, however.
Here is some information about Norwegian Offshore business from the Norwegian Shipowners Association: file:///C:/Users/ombugge/Downloads/%255b360.238118%255dEngelsk+offshorerederier.pdf
[U]Advise;[/U] don’t start by talking money and conditions first. Tell them what you can offer in terms of knowledge and experience and take it from there.
What Norwegian or other foreign Owners will offer for a qualified and experienced American Master working on vessels in the GoM I do not know. I’m not sure if there are any at the moment to use as reference. (Maybe on the CSVs operated by McDermott?)
In any case, don’t expect to be hired directly as Master, even if you have years of experience from ordinary OSVs. The foreign vessels working in GoM will by nature be specialized and highly sophisticated, otherwise they wouldn’t be there. Some experience on such vessels in lower ranks may be advantageous.
I know of some American Masters working for Singapore companies, or on Singapore flag vessels owned by foreign companies but operated from here. As far as I know they are being paid competitive wages under acceptable conditions. The same goes for American owned and operated vessels under foreign flag working here in S.E.Asia. (It’s been a while since I have been on board any US flag OSV, or even seen one here)
Hope this helps to clarify your doubts about work on foreign flag vessels.
Here is a link to the website for Norwegian Maritime Officer’s Association: https://sjooff.no/om/Sider/English.aspx
It does not say anything directly about the pay level, but it shows that foreigners are welcome to join if they work on Norwegian flagged, owned or controlled vessels worldwide.
[QUOTE=c.captain;172845]fine…try this link. This information is old but still generally valid[/QUOTE]
OK, I have now read this in more details.
Although the posts are 5-6 years old I don’t think the problem of foreign boat working in the GoM has been diminished, or that c.captain has become less enraged by the fact that they are there, stealing jobs from qualified American Mariners.
It raises some questions though:
- How many US built and flagged rig/drillships are there that is capable of drilling in over 1,000 m. of water?
- How many US built and flagged boats are there that can perform sub-sea construction, IMR, well intervention etc. in over 1,000 m. of water?
- How many US built and flagged vessels of any kind are there that can lay pipe, cables or umbilicals in over 1,000 m. of water?
- How many US built and flagged Crane vessels are there that is capable of lifting over 3,000 m.t. anywhere offshore?
- How many US built and flagged Seismic vessels are there that can tow more than 8 streamers, or perform 4D seismic?
- How many US flagged Semi-submersible Heavy Lift Vessels able to transport Spars or do Float-over are there?
- How many US flagged FPSOs are in operation anywhere in the world, incl. the GoM?
Please fill in the answers to the above.
I could go on, but that should suffice to prove my next point:
If all the foreign vessels now working in the GoM where withdrawn, either because they were banned, or because the Owners and Charterers found more lucrative work elsewhere, how long would it take to replace them with new US built vessels capable of performing the samme work?
In stead of bitching about the foreign boats you (as in USA)should concentrate on gaining the skill to build and operate the type of vessels and equipment needed to explore and produce oil and gas in deep water. Deep water activity may slow down world wide, but it is NOT going to go away.
How does the big ship market under the Jones Act handle it? They adapts foreign designs and use foreign machinery and equipment to stay, if not competitive with foreign yards on price, at least reasonable up dated on technology: http://www.motorship.com/news101/ships-and-shipyards/jones-act-aframax-gives-new-dimension-to-us-shipbuilding
Yes, it is starting to happen in the OSV market as well, but it will take years to catch up and be ready when the market turn, eventually.
This is actually the time to modernize the yards and the fleet, when cost is depressed because of low oil prices. The developers of technology, machinery and equipment is looking for ANY business and would be happy to shear their “secrets” to be able to keep active in lean times.
How come those foreigners managed to leapfrog the US on offshore technology and construction in the first place?
Because they learnt from the Americans who developed the basics back in the 1950s and 1960s. Many of them didn’t have much in the form of “book learning” (I know, I worked with many of them in the 1970s) They also didn’t have any inhibitions and didn’t believe those who said “it can’t be done”.
In the early 1970s US rig builders came to Singapore and set up shop, building rigs to drawings they brought with them, equipping them with machinery imported from the US. They also brought in specialized workers like “derrick builders” from Oklahoma and others.
It didn’t take long before local yards started to build rigs as well and today all Jackups and semies are built here by local yard, many for the US market.
In the case of Norway, ODECO ordered a rig to be built at Aker Shipyard in the middle of Oslo. The design was typical ODECO, with four hulls, a lot of columns and a very light deck. All drawings and equipment came from the US, but it got the Engineers at Aker thinking and they designed the Aker H3, which became the “gold standard” for what then passed as “harsh weather rigs”. (Many of them still drilling. Maybe even in the GoM?)
For the OSVs the story was much the same. Tidewater wanted to get into the big boat market in the North Sea and ordered three AHTS at Ulstein Shipyard. Not exactly typical GoM “mud boats” of the time. Here is one of them: http://maritime-connector.com/ship/giant-tide-7368724/print/
Ulstein used to build Fishing vessels, incl. Factory Trawlers for operation in the Atlantic, Greenland and the Barents Sea and knew a thing or two about building boat that could handle rough weather and rough handling of gear. They made their own designed, the UT 704, which has been called the basis for ALL future OSVs. The designer was honoured with a “Lifetime Achievement Award” at 75 last year (still working): http://www.motorship.com/news101/comment-and-analysis/sigmund-borgundvaag-four-decades-of-designing-the-future
In the meantime US yards kept on building the same type of rigs with the same drilling equipment for years, until they could no longer compete on the international market.
The same applied to the OSVs. some 10-12 years ago I came on a US flag, US built AHTS for an inspection of some sort.
As I stepped into the “Gally” I asked the Captain; Halter Marine built is it?? The layout was exactly the same as the boats I had worked on in 1970, which was built as early as 1963(at least one of them) and worked with in the 1970s.
Isn’t it time to DO SOMETHING WITH THAT???
[QUOTE=ombugge;172865]If you are seriously interested in finding out about possibilities to work on Norwegian vessel in the GoM, or anywhere else, you need to contact the Owners, don’t expect them to advertise vacancies in the US.[/QUOTE]
The point is, we shouldn’t have to do all that. The owners are required to look for Americans to crew their vessels working in American waters. The least they could do is put ads on Rigzone and seriously consider the applicants.
[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;172875]The point is, we shouldn’t have to do all that. The owners are required to look for Americans to crew their vessels working in American waters. The least they could do is put ads on Rigzone and seriously consider the applicants.[/QUOTE]
Are American Owners with vessels working in foreign countries doing that do you think?? It’s a two way street.
If you are looking for work you do what it takes to find it, or stay unemployed.
Work options on foreign boats doesn’t necessarily mean in the GoM only. The boat may leave GoM and go to say Brasil, West Africa, or even North Sea.
Are you willing to work overseas?
[QUOTE=ombugge;172879]Are American Owners with vessels working in foreign countries doing that do you think?? It’s a two way street.
If you are looking for work you do what it takes to find it, or stay unemployed.
Work options on foreign boats doesn’t necessarily mean in the GoM only. The boat may leave GoM and go to say Brasil, West Africa, or even North Sea.
Are you willing to work overseas?[/QUOTE]
American owners that operate where local law requires local crews do hire locals. (I specifically know of Brazil and Africa being like that.)
I’m not actively looking for work I’m just commenting on the principle of the matter. The law says they have to employ Americans, yet they don’t. If it’s a 3 month contract on a highly specialized vessel I understand Congress giving them a waiver. If it’s a 2 year contract there’s no excuse for not hiring Americans. Note: see CFR citation at bottom about who is required to be American and who is not.
I would be willing to work foreign on the right rotation for the right pay and I expect many (if not most) American mariners would.
(b) As used in paragraph (a) of this section, “regular complement of a unit” means those personnel necessary for the routine functioning of the unit, including marine officers and crew; industrial personnel on the unit, such as toolpushers, drillers, roustabouts, floor hands, crane operators, derrickmen, mechanics, motormen, and general maintenance personnel; and support personnel on the unit, such as cooks, stewards and radio operators. The term does not include specialists, professionals, or other technically trained personnel called in to handle emergencies or other temporary operations; extra personnel on a unit for training; and other personnel temporarily on a unit for specialized operations, such as construction, alteration, well logging, or unusual repairs or emergencies.
To shorten that CFR, the only exceptions to having US nationals is foreign specialist consultants.
And yet, there are many cases of waivers to these regulations allowing foreign workers and vessels when there are in fact available Americans and if our government incentivized American operators or shipyards instead of slowly killing them, we would have the available specialized tonnage.
[QUOTE=ombugge;172879]Are American Owners with vessels working in foreign countries doing that do you think?? It’s a two way street.
If you are looking for work you do what it takes to find it, or stay unemployed.
Work options on foreign boats doesn’t necessarily mean in the GoM only. The boat may leave GoM and go to say Brasil, West Africa, or even North Sea.
Are you willing to work overseas?[/QUOTE]
you SIR do not understand anything concerning foreign vessels working in the US GoM. US law says that the vessel owners are supposed to hire US crews for them except there are loopholes in the law that allow the owners to use disingenuous and deceitful practices to keep foreign nationals on their ships. The USCG issues manning waivers to foreign ships in the GoM to keep their foreign nationals aboard so they are a handmaiden to these harmful (to US mariners) practices.
[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;172891]American owners that operate where local law requires local crews do hire locals. (I specifically know of Brazil and Africa being like that.)
I’m not actively looking for work I’m just commenting on the principle of the matter. The law says they have to employ Americans, yet they don’t. If it’s a 3 month contract on a highly specialized vessel I understand Congress giving them a waiver. If it’s a 2 year contract there’s no excuse for not hiring Americans. Note: see CFR citation at bottom about who is required to be American and who is not.
I would be willing to work foreign on the right rotation for the right pay and I expect many (if not most) American mariners would.
(b) As used in paragraph (a) of this section, “regular complement of a unit” means those personnel necessary for the routine functioning of the unit, including marine officers and crew; industrial personnel on the unit, such as toolpushers, drillers, roustabouts, floor hands, crane operators, derrickmen, mechanics, motormen, and general maintenance personnel; and support personnel on the unit, such as cooks, stewards and radio operators. The term does not include specialists, professionals, or other technically trained personnel called in to handle emergencies or other temporary operations; extra personnel on a unit for training; and other personnel temporarily on a unit for specialized operations, such as construction, alteration, well logging, or unusual repairs or emergencies.[/QUOTE]
Doesn’t this refer to MODUs and production units working on the OCS/EEZ?
(2) Determinations in paragraph (c)(1) of this section for all MODUs and fixed and floating OCS facilities, as those terms are defined in 33 CFR 140.10,
The vessels we are talking about here are not engaged in carrying cargo from US ports to units as mentioned above.
To my knowledge all MODUs working there on long contracts are complying, whether they are owned and operated by US companies or not.
PS> I count those companies nominally registered in the same little village in Switzerland as US companies for this purpose.
The waters within the OCS/EEZ are international and free navigation is allowed according to UNCLOS.
The gray area is obviously when a shelf state can regulate crewing on a foreign vessel working within their EEZ. Only Australia demand that everybody, incl. the Master is Australian, which does not work for US or NOR vessels etc. where the flag state demand that the Master is their national. The compromise has been to have an Australian Master as well as one National, but how that would work in case of an accident and court case it not clear. Many companies also keep at least their own Chief Engineer as well. In Australia this is mainly a union demand, the Government is not that keen on it.
Other nations, like Brasil, demand that crew and junior officers are their nationals, but do not demand EVERYBODY is. The same goes for many other Shelf states. There are some US flag boats working in West Africa I believe? Do they have full local crews, incl. Master?
The question is still, where should the vessels to do the work now performed by foreign vessels come from, if you guys managed to drive them out??
I believe there are many Americans working on these vessels as Charterer’s or 3rd Party personnel. That is high paying positions that wouldn’t be there if these vessels were not there. Concentrate on getting US vessels in place that is able to do the jobs in stead.
In the meantime, maybe it would be better to try to get jobs on the foreign vessels that is there based on merits, not demand that they have to take crew based on nationality?
[QUOTE=c.captain;172907]you SIR do not understand anything concerning foreign vessels working in the US GoM. US law says that the vessel owners are supposed to hire US crews for them except there are loopholes in the law that allow the owners to use disingenuous and deceitful practices to keep foreign nationals on their ships. The USCG issues manning waivers to foreign ships in the GoM to keep their foreign nationals aboard so they are a handmaiden to these harmful (to US mariners) practices.[/QUOTE]
I never claimed to know everything about anything. There are thick books written about thing we do not know, you and me both.
The fact is that US cannot regulate unilaterally outside their territorial waters, nor can they specify crewing rules for foreign vessels in international water, even if it is within their EEZ. The problem is defining what is operations directly involved with the exploration or extraction of resources within the EEZ. Fishing and Drilling clearly is, but sitting on DP and carry out other tasks may not.
The OSC Act is an old Law set before UNCLOS. Although the Congress has not ratified UNCLOS, the US is a signatory and has tried to comply, so far.
I doubt that the Owners of these vessels are disingenuous or deceitful in following the rules that govern their operation. At the same time, why would they not hire US citizens to fill some positions on their vessels, as long as they have the required qualification, experience, knowledge and attitude to fill the job?
Travel expenses would be far less as long as the boat is working in the GoM. They may even save on wages and social costs, if the flag stat allow them to hire on local conditions.