Puerto Rico - Statehood and attack on the Jones Act

Shorebased Admiralty Law
87

Sorry if I go way OT here, but I can’t find a suitable thread to put this in:

I came to this forum because I have been a regular reader of gcaptain newsletter for quite some time and find it informative, up to date and not too American centered.

I expected the forum members here to be mostly seafarer who had been around the world and knew a bit about it, but I find that there are many that know nothing, or very little or anything outside the confines of US shipping and US waters. (Not all I may hast to add)

Another thing that strikes me is the tendency to assume that any foreigner must be an ill-informed nitwit with no knowledge of anything American and most likely anything else.

Somewhere here I was told that; “if you don’t live here you cannot know anything about cost of living in America”. It is a matter of record and available on the internet for anybody to find, as it is for every other country you may want to compare to. (New York is usually 100. Anything above is more expensive, anything below is cheaper)

If we assume that somebody who do not live in the US cannot possibly know anything about America, can we then draw the conclusion that somebody who do cannot possibly know anything about the rest of the world??
This is the stereotype view of Americans by many people, but I was really hoping to be able to prove that wrong here.
(I better put on my tin hat now, I presume)

I have worked with Americans all over the world for many years, many of them originating from an area from around Route 20 and south and card carrying Red Necks. Even if they had worked International for many years there would be little or no interest in learning anything about the countries they were working in, or about the people they were working with, or learn their language, with some notable exceptions.
I have also worked with Americans who made an effort to learn as much as possible of local culture and customs, even politics.
Many ended up living and working in S.E.Asia for many years and some who never went back.

I especially remember working with one person who claimed he though himself to read and write after he turned 20. When I worked with him he was Area Manager for one of what was a major US Drilling Contractor at the time. He later went all the way to Vice President in the company and his Assistant Manager, (who was well educated) later became CEO in that same company.

What is the purpose of this ranting?? Just to show how obnoxious them for’ners can be.

88

[QUOTE=ombugge;172402]Sorry if I go way OT here, but I can’t find a suitable thread to put this in:

I expected the forum members here to be …

What is the purpose of this ranting?? Just to show how obnoxious them for’ners can be.[/QUOTE]

I’m sure after sampling a little of that local “Kulchur” down Thailand way, a fair number of the boys failed to make it back to the Bayou.
Or at least they were “delayed enroute”, so to speak.
Known a few to go off the deep end and enjoyed a few soapy sandwiches myself.

But today mate, put on a little thick skin, ease away from the keyboard, head outdoors, and breeeeathe.

Nothing important going on here, at all, so forget it all…
Ya ain’t reading [I]Lloyds List [/I]despite the fancy home page.
It’s an internet forum and we’re just reviewing the goss and havin’ a chin wag.
There’s thems that knows, there’s thems that don’t know and there’s them thats don’t care to know…
Some of each.

Have an exceedingly pleasant evening.

89

[QUOTE=Glaug-Eldare;172131]They were not (nobody can seize property of the Crown), but with respect to military readiness, does it really matter? 10% of their vehicle inventory was seized by a foreign business for more than two weeks. Would you tolerate that here, even if the seizor was standing on their rights in a contract to another commercial party? Coming back to cabotage, the Jones Act, and cargo preference, the thing that allowed this fiasco was that the entire sealift was handled by purely foreign interests who had no reason to treat the government of Canada as anything more than another cargo owner whose property could be seized the same as a box of snow globes from China.

Now I feel like making my avatar a picture of a pretty, delicate flower…[/QUOTE]

Who said anything about seizing?
What did the Contract say?
I don’t care about the property of the Crown.
Only what’s on the BoL and any obligation to actually deliver it according to the terms agreed.

90

[QUOTE=+A465B;172405]Who said anything about seizing?
What did the Contract say?
I don’t care about the property of the Crown.
Only what’s on the BoL and any obligation to actually deliver it according to the terms agreed.[/QUOTE]

I’m no authority on admiralty law, and it looks like I misinterpreted the case I was looking at where Third Ocean sought a seizure order against the Canadian government [I]after[/I] the ship was in military custody. In any case, your reply illustrates exactly why government cargo shouldn’t depend on a chain of third-, fourth-, and fifth-parties writing their own contracts and terms with each other without the government’s input. As a practical matter, Canada needed that freight immediately and wasn’t concerned with a squabble between two private companies. They had contracted SDV to get the cargo to Montreal in a timely manner, and that was not occurring. Canadian citizens should not be caught in that situation where it takes military force to get public property back from a carrier in a timely manner. These long and complicated chains of independent parties making their own agreements and having their own disputes is a recipe for intolerable delays. They would not have been in this situation if they weren’t dependent on foreign-owned logistics companies hiring other logistics companies to hire foreign shipowners who hire foreign management companies and so on. One solution is to own at least one cargo ship that sails at the direction of the government, another is to contract directly with Canadian shippers under a program like the American MSP.

Simply put, I don’t care about why they weren’t doing the job Canada required them to do. The time to worry about their lawsuits is after the cargo is unloaded, not before. It is intolerable for one private company to intentionally delay crucial government cargo as a bargaining chip against another private company.

91

But today mate, put on a little thick skin, ease away from the keyboard, head outdoors, and breeeeathe.

With this haze???

92

[QUOTE=ombugge;172402]What is the purpose of this ranting?? Just to show how obnoxious them for’ners can be.[/QUOTE]

When I referred to you as an “annoying foreigner” it wasn’t a slight against against all foreigners. You are a specific type that we see here occasionally with a superiority complex. Foreign mariners are better, foreign shipyards are better, foreign companies are better, etc. Tone down the bullshit and you’ll get along fine.

93

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;172415]When I referred to you as an “annoying foreigner” it wasn’t a slight against against all foreigners. You are a specific type that we see here occasionally with a superiority complex. Foreign mariners are better, foreign shipyards are better, foreign companies are better, etc. Tone down the bullshit and you’ll get along fine.[/QUOTE]

Have I said any of those things?? Can you show me a quote??
I have pointed out that to describe US shipping and shipbuilding as superior quality, safest and most innovative is not necessarily correct and it may be worth toning down the rhetoric a little. If that was the case, how come it has has just about disappeared in the last few decades??

I know it is not nice to point out that some thing said here may not be entirely true and that it is possible to do things differently to improve for the benefit of all.

94

My oh my! Such nasty vitriolic invective and verbal fisticuffs here…

however, I am only going to sit at ringside and watch the teeth fly

95

[QUOTE=ombugge;172421] If that was the case, how come it has has just about disappeared in the last few decades??[/QUOTE]

Innovation, quality, and safety cannot protect an industry from the parasites who inhabit Wall Street and control their minions in Congress. Please don’t blame the victim.

97

Ho[QUOTE=ombugge;172402]Sorry if I go way OT here, but I can’t find a suitable thread to put this in:

I came to this forum because I have been a regular reader of gcaptain newsletter for quite some time and find it informative, up to date and not too American centered.

I expected the forum members here to be mostly seafarer who had been around the world and knew a bit about it, but I find that there are many that know nothing, or very little or anything outside the confines of US shipping and US waters. (Not all I may hast to add)

Another thing that strikes me is the tendency to assume that any foreigner must be an ill-informed nitwit with no knowledge of anything American and most likely anything else.

Somewhere here I was told that; “if you don’t live here you cannot know anything about cost of living in America”. It is a matter of record and available on the internet for anybody to find, as it is for every other country you may want to compare to. (New York is usually 100. Anything above is more expensive, anything below is cheaper)

If we assume that somebody who do not live in the US cannot possibly know anything about America, can we then draw the conclusion that somebody who do cannot possibly know anything about the rest of the world??
This is the stereotype view of Americans by many people, but I was really hoping to be able to prove that wrong here.
(I better put on my tin hat now, I presume)

I have worked with Americans all over the world for many years, many of them originating from an area from around Route 20 and south and card carrying Red Necks. Even if they had worked International for many years there would be little or no interest in learning anything about the countries they were working in, or about the people they were working with, or learn their language, with some notable exceptions.
I have also worked with Americans who made an effort to learn as much as possible of local culture and customs, even politics.
Many ended up living and working in S.E.Asia for many years and some who never went back.

I especially remember working with one person who claimed he though himself to read and write after he turned 20. When I worked with him he was Area Manager for one of what was a major US Drilling Contractor at the time. He later went all the way to Vice President in the company and his Assistant Manager, (who was well educated) later became CEO in that same company.

What is the purpose of this ranting?? Just to show how obnoxious them for’ners can be.[/QUOTE]

Don’t worry.

Most Americans are not very knowledgeable about America either. It never ceases to amaze me how much most foreign visitors know about America.

98

Re the earlier discussion of the Jones Act value in US national security, here is a 2006 article from the Defense Transportation Journal praising the El Faro for her support of Operation Iraqi Freedom --the 2003 invasion of Iraq. The El Faro was known as Northern Lights back then. Note the letter of commendation from General Norton Schwartz.

http://www.ndtahq.com/images/pdf/northernlights.pdf

99

[QUOTE=lm1883;172425]Sounds like the same Wall Street folk who would offshore their operations to Singapore. Just sayin…[/QUOTE]

I doubt that they would enjoy it very much. Singapore is known for strict rules and enforcement.
As long as they behave themselves they are welcome of cause. If not, Changi is waiting for them.

100

[QUOTE=Steamer;172423]Innovation, quality, and safety cannot protect an industry from the parasites who inhabit Wall Street and control their minions in Congress. Please don’t blame the victim.[/QUOTE]

Innovation, quality and safety does help, but you are right, it doesn’t do alone. Maybe you should try a little of the Social Democracy now being on offer???

But seriously, it is not high wages for workers that make American shipping and shipbuilding non-competitive, it is the sky high wages for top management, especially CEOs and the high return expected by the financiers and investors.

If you want to check how this is handled in nominally Socialistic Scandinavia have a look here: http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21571136-politicians-both-right-and-left-could-learn-nordic-countries-next-supermodel
Is this a myth and this article written in some left leaning “Commie rag”? No, it actually work and The Economist is a highly regarded news magazine read world wide.

[U]Disclaimer!!![/U]: This post is NOT written on behalf of any Presidential Candidate. I’m NOT being paid by any PAC Fund and NOT trying to interfere in US internal affairs.
It is only my own opinion and does NOT reflect the opinion of gCaptain Forum.

101

[QUOTE=ombugge;172525]
Is this a myth and this article written in some left leaning “Commie rag”? No, it actually work and The Economist is a highly regarded news magazine read world wide.

[/QUOTE]

You might get a better reception here if you stopped writing to this group as if we are a bunch of illiterates. We are not refugees from some remote Asian village who left the mountainside to find work at sea.

102

[QUOTE=Steamer;172526]You might get a better reception here if you stopped writing to this group as if we are a bunch of illiterates. We are not refugees from some remote Asian village who left the mountainside to find work at sea.[/QUOTE]

Oh?? Until now it has been me that has been regarded as an ignorant so and so living in Asia and knowing nothing about anything, except maybe “four floors of hores”.

By the way, most of the refugees flooding into Europe these days are not from remote Asian villages but educated people from the cradle of western civilization. Don’t think of them as illiterates.

103

[QUOTE=ombugge;172528]By the way, most of the refugees flooding into Europe these days are not from remote Asian villages but educated people from the cradle of western civilization. Don’t think of them as illiterates.[/QUOTE]

?? WTF has that little gem got to do with anything? Have you run out of material already?

If you have something to say about the Jones Act with regard to Puerto Rico then have at it, otherwise stop wasting bandwidth and annoying the membership with off topic and insulting little tidbits that don’t seem to focus on much of anything relevant to the overwhelming majority of members.

104

[QUOTE=lm1883;172425]Sounds like the same Wall Street folk who would offshore their operations to Singapore. Just sayin…[/QUOTE]
Is there is US based driller these days?

105

[QUOTE=Steamer;172564]?? WTF has that little gem got to do with anything? Have you run out of material already?

If you have something to say about the Jones Act with regard to Puerto Rico then have at it, otherwise stop wasting bandwidth and annoying the membership with off topic and insulting little tidbits that don’t seem to focus on much of anything relevant to the overwhelming majority of members.[/QUOTE]

Yes I have a lot to say and I’m afraid that it is going to upset a lot of the members. I claim the 1st Amendment, or is that reserved for American Citizens to make silly statements about anything and anybody foreign??

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[QUOTE=powerabout;172571]Is there is US based driller these days?[/QUOTE]

Yes, Hercules I believe, or have they moved out too??

106

more or less however we extend that right to everyone here Citizen or not.

107

[QUOTE=ombugge;172577]Yes I have a lot to say and I’m afraid that it is going to upset a lot of the members. I claim the 1st Amendment, or is that reserved for American Citizens to make silly statements about anything and anybody foreign??[/QUOTE]

actually, the First Amendment to the US Constitution is to allow US citizens the right to speak against their government and nothing more. It is not a blanket right to simply speak.

Now regarding to speaking here…all we ask is that a new person have a modicum of humility and deference to the other members here who have longer standing. We ask to not be challenged directly but if we are challenged for our words, that challenge should be made with respect. You are a maritime man so you already have earned a degree of standing from that fact alone, but those who have not been professional seafarers do not have that automatic standing (Carruthers, et all) so need to be very heedful of that fact. If they aren’t, then they can expect heavy push back from people like me who have been here for years contributing.

thank you

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[QUOTE=ombugge;172528]Oh?? Until now it has been me that has been regarded as an ignorant so and so living in Asia and knowing nothing about anything, except maybe “four floors of hores”.

By the way, most of the refugees flooding into Europe these days are not from remote Asian villages but educated people from the cradle of western civilization. Don’t think of them as illiterates.[/QUOTE]

end this nonsense of squabbling over trivialities…stick to the thread’s topic please