I am going to play devil’s advocate here a bit because I’m for a strong military; however, I agree there is also some waste. Confused? Everywhere I look in this country I see waste. Road construction takes forever and yet can’t keep pace with the rate of our decaying infrastructure. There are entire websites about people sleeping in offices; yet, there is so much crying about off shoring when it is clearly more PRODUCTIVE to do so. Our health care system is ridiculously out of control contributed by our insatiable appetite for bogus lawsuits. I can’t even walk into a McDonald’s without being annoyed at the PIECE of SHIT, indignant workers who are no doubt demanding higher pay. So everywhere I look, there’s waste. It’s endemic to our society. So when I read about excessive DoD spending, it’s just one more thing. In 2013 congress approved a budget of $3,803 billion of which $672.9 billion was for the DoD or 17% of the total. When I think about how much I am paying out of my pocket to the DoD compared to all the other bullshit out there it just doesn’t seem like that big a deal to me.
I am also for a strong military. The current method of using outside contractors to fulfill military needs may seem bloated, and it is, but what’s the alternative? If a lean running corporation in a highly competitive market like McDonald’s can’t even maintain an efficient staff at its restaurants, how do we expect government to be any better? So yes there’s waste, but that’s part of the cost of doing things in this country. I say if we make a societal change (which won’t happen) to encourage the earnest workers, to reward the right, and ignore the bogus squeaky wheels, then most other things will clear up.
[QUOTE=TrainMan;141227] When I think about how much I am paying out of my pocket to the DoD compared to all the other bullshit out there it just doesn’t seem like that big a deal to me.[/QUOTE]
It’s a big F’ing deal to me and a lot of others who stopped drinking the Kool Aid.
And as far as McDonalds workers go, perhaps if you gave some though to where they come from (which opens a whole new can of societal worms) and how McD gets away with its employment practices, you might look at them differently.
All this is brought to you by the right wing patriots who wave the flag highest and curse the Americans who might be described as collateral damage along the road to Ronnie Raygun’s “shining city upon the hill.”
[QUOTE=Steamer;141229]It’s a big F’ing deal to me and a lot of others who stopped drinking the Kool Aid.
And as far as McDonalds workers go, perhaps if you gave some though to where they come from (which opens a whole new can of societal worms) and how McD gets away with its employment practices, you might look at them differently.
All this is brought to you by the right wing patriots who wave the flag highest and curse the Americans who might be described as collateral damage along the road to Ronnie Raygun’s “shining city upon the hill.”[/QUOTE]
The USA spends about 4% of it GDP on defense, more than twice that of our allies. Ridiculous waste.
Want to complain why it take so long to get infrastructure fixed? Ask your congressman. This takes money, don’t want another penny tax on gas? Cut the “defense” budget maybe the money would be there. Maybe increase the effective tax rate on corporations to over 12% or cut the tax loopholes for the hedge fund billionaires. Maybe take out the law that says the government cannot negotiate for lower drug prices for Medicare. You remember that one? The law that was pushed thru by Billy Tauzin a Representative from Louisiana who went to work shortly thereafter the drug lobby. Costs us taxpayers billions a year.
The McDonald’s worker everyone complains about? Stop feeding your face there and supporting them. But do not forget that one wrong economic move and you could be one of those workers, if you are lucky.
If the ones that complain about “waste” would spend as much time insisting on revenue maybe then the two sides would look for a solution. Right now these crooks running things would rather stop feeding kids at school than stop building a tank the US Army doesn’t even want and subsequently parks in a desert for storage. The kids cost less by the way. Anyone that defends this crap is either uneducated or delusional.
[QUOTE=tengineer1;141230]The USA spends about 4% of it GDP on defense, more than twice that of our allies. Ridiculous waste.
Want to complain why it take so long to get infrastructure fixed? Ask your congressman. This takes money, don’t want another penny tax on gas? Cut the “defense” budget maybe the money would be there. Maybe increase the effective tax rate on corporations to over 12% or cut the tax loopholes for the hedge fund billionaires. Maybe take out the law that says the government cannot negotiate for lower drug prices for Medicare. You remember that one? The law that was pushed thru by Billy Tauzin a Representative from Louisiana who went to work shortly thereafter the drug lobby. Costs us taxpayers billions a year.
The McDonald’s worker everyone complains about? Stop feeding your face there and supporting them. But do not forget that one wrong economic move and you could be one of those workers, if you are lucky.
If the ones that complain about “waste” would spend as much time insisting on revenue maybe then the two sides would look for a solution. Right now these crooks running things would rather stop feeding kids at school than stop building a tank the US Army doesn’t even want and subsequently parks in a desert for storage. The kids cost less by the way. Anyone that defends this crap is either uneducated or delusional.[/QUOTE]
this simple graph says volumes
and as Robert Gates most astutely stated “and 11 of those 13 (nations) are U.S. allies or partners”
How can anyone claim that the US is not today marching down a path to bankruptcy unless this obscene overspending on defense is ended? How can we even use the term “defense” when it comes to our military spending? Is the plan to go on “offense” once we default on all our debts and tell the entire world to “GO FUCK YOURSELVES”? Is that the secret plan? Then all those nations that are today allies will suddenly not like the USA too much. Are we secretly planning to militarily seize all the global strategic assets we need to survive someday?
and as Robert Gates most astutely stated “and 11 of those 13 (nations) are U.S. allies or partners”
can anyone claim that the US is not today marching down a path to bankruptcy unless this is ended![/QUOTE]
It is marching down the path of the former Soviet Union, the British Empire and many others. Anyone that believes otherwise does not study the warnings of our own leaders or the lessons of history. Sadly our politicians do not even want to talk about this issue as they are too busy working for the rapists while making noise about some wannabe immigrant kids at our border that are trying to escape drug violence and gangs in their own country caused by the USA BS “war on drugs” which is just another war we lost but is making the contractors rich. It is all smoke and mirrors.
There seems to be a lot of regal entitlement associated with the modern military concept of “honor and service, duty to country” and all the horsecrap they use when making speeches on patriotic holidays.
It’s not just the grand and glorious naveee either:
The payback for these honorable gentlemen for their “service” to the defense industry is a life of luxury while the grunts die waiting for medical care.
You guys are convincing me to turn a new leaf. I might just call my rep, Robert Brady, and ask what he’s doing to lower defense spending. I don’t watch the news or read the papers as I think its just a bunch of hyped up crap packaged to make somebody money. I do, however, read tons of history. From reading all that I am well aware that the period after WWII has been one of the most peaceful time periods ever. I’ve been staring at a map of the world, thinking of all the current and past tensions between current nations and wondering why there has been so few wars as of late. Why has there been no more land grabs besides Crimea. The best I can think of is the world became sick of war following WWII, the most powerful nations are democracies which generally lack the desire to wage war, and the threat of mutually assured destruction. I agree the war on drugs is a joke. I think beefing up the border is a huge waste of money. (If a local cop can arrest somebody for an out of state warrant, then why can’t he detain someone for unlawful residence. Either way, he’s acting on laws outside his jurisdiction). I agree with a lot of what yous are saying. I too worry about this nation. 20 years ago it was so easy to get a job; now even minimum wage gigs can be tough to find. That really bothers me. But its not the topic here. So how big of a Navy do yous want for our nation? Would you prefer we shrink down to a green water navy like most nations or just reduce the number of carrier battle groups to 5 with maybe 10 boomers. Any thoughts on what we should limit ourselves to?
[QUOTE=TrainMan;141242]Y From reading all that I am well aware that the period after WWII has been one of the most peaceful time periods ever.[/QUOTE]
There a a few million folks who might say otherwise, if they weren’t dead. About 60 million died in WW2, we are quickly approaching that number since peace broke out with over 50 million not counting those since 2000. But arms sales have been booming.
It’s time to find some new history books and some old maps. There isn’t enough room here and I don’t have enough time to even provide the number of links it would take but just for a single example, here is what happened in the Middle East since 1945:
We will pay the tab for that shit until we are as poor as Haiti or Zimbabwe.
[QUOTE=Bamatug;141198]I am one of the “tea party” as you called me. I am a extreme conservative. I don’t believe in spending, and the excess money that is wasted on troops. I.e family separation pay . Why should the Military compensate you, you knew when you signed leaving family was a must . I am for the people of the people and by the people
[/QUOTE]
I would much rather pay family separation pay to some E-5 risking his or her ass out there for us than buy another damned F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. They are incredibly expensive white elephants…that catch fire on the runway.
I could find more common ground with tea partiers if they weren’t so damned willing to save money on the backs of the low to moderate income rank and file Americans. Why don’t you guys go after the rich who manage to find every possible angle to avoid taxes? And please don’t tell me they are the job creators. I work for the government and my paycheck comes from millions of rank and file Americans. It is the working men and women of this country who are the real job creators.
Yet the Tea party attacks the ordinary American and protects and defends the rich man. I don’t get it and never will.
[QUOTE=TrainMan;141242]So how big of a Navy do yous want for our nation? Would you prefer we shrink down to a green water navy like most nations or just reduce the number of carrier battle groups to 5 with maybe 10 boomers. Any thoughts on what we should limit ourselves to?[/QUOTE]
a US military one third its present size still would be a military larger than the militaries of Russia or China and when combined with the militaries of the NATO and SEATO nations is significantly larger than both of Russia, China, Iran and North Korea combined (did I miss any other “potential” enemies?). Time to make our global alliance partners share in duty of keeping the world secure. It is not just our job or financial burden alone.
What ever would we do with all the defense contractors though and all their lobbyists? That is why none of this will ever happen and why we’ll buy more useless LCS’s, unnecessary SSBN’s and hideously expensive F-35’s!
To ween the US military/industrial complex from its dependency on obscene amounts of cash from the taxpayer is as difficult as getting a crack or heroin addict to stop using. How ever did we allow defense procurement to become so outrageously overpriced? I know it started with the cold war but something happened in the Raygun years to feed steroids to the monster
A true bred tea partier believe in fairness across the board. I believe in a fair tax. 15% income tax across the board. And when i mean income tax, any money that is brought in via work, investment, or simply a gift, and delete any and all loop holes.
I believe medicare, food stamps, welfare, disability etc should be cut have a one year period before it restarts and make it stringent . These programs were created with good intentions but people have became dependent on it and exist to solely make it exist.
Jones Act needs to be more stringent. As soon as a foreign flagged ship enters US federal waters. Each position on board needs to have an american compliment amongst other rules.
I am strongly for the HARD WORKING, BLUE BLOODED AMERICAN. My questions at political events local and national have proved that.
Most americans speak louder than their actions. We speak And speak. But very few stand up for their rights and demand action. And are willing to suffer While proving it
I was the Louisianan that was arrested for simply enforcing my rights against an officer. As with all my traffic stops it was recorded. I was accused of speeding, I respectfully asked the officer to please go and check the speed limit sign. Which in court was proven to be 55 not 45 as the officer stated and implied. The prosecutor had amended the charges to hindering an officer, and reckless since i was accused of being 10mph over the limit. When in reality i was only doing exactly the speed.
My lawyer used the coordinates and address given by the officer. And it was clearly proven i was right. I refused to roll my window down all the way. I cracked it. He tried to make me roll it all the way, i refused. He tried to look in my vehicle through the windshield. I gave him the plain view doctrine which clearly states an officer cannot look through a windshield4 front or back to enforce said doctrine.
All in all i spent a night in jail. Cost me lawyer in the tune 3,400$. And 2 eight hour days at trial. I suffered to prove a point.
[QUOTE=c.captain;141256]a US military one third its present size still would be a military larger than the militaries of Russia or China and when combined with the militaries of the NATO and SEATO nations is significantly larger than both of Russia, China, Iran and North Korea combined (did I miss any other “potential” enemies?). Time to make our global alliance partners share in duty of keeping the world secure. It is not just our job or financial burden alone.
What ever would we do with all the defense contractors though and all their lobbyists? That is why none of this will ever happen and why we’ll buy more useless LCS’s, unnecessary SSBN’s and hideously expensive F-35’s!
To ween the US military/industrial complex from its dependency on obscene amounts of cash from the taxpayer is as difficult as getting a crack or heroin addict to stop using. How ever did we allow defense procurement to become so outrageously overpriced? I know it started with the cold war but something happened in the Raygun years to feed steroids to the monster[/QUOTE]
That sounds fair. But the million dollar question is how to do something about it. I think the big military spending started back in WWII and just kept on trucking ever since then. Every now and then they get all pumped up and do things such as light some sparklers in Korea or toss lawn jarts in Iraq. I worry about things like Crimea and Syria; it sounded too much like war mongering to me. And speaking of war mongering, I was reading a biography on James Polk in 2003 and the drumming up of the Mexican-American War was played out the exact same way as the Iraq war was. History really does repeat itself. But back on topic. The lobbyists: I have no idea how to tackle this problem. For all intents and purposes, one must be from one of the two major parties to win an election in this country. Right there, ideas, philosophies, ethics, and morals must be compromised to fit in with a party. Then it is really expensive to run an ad campaign so one must be on the phone to finance a campaign, probably where the lobbyists have the most influence. Since nice guys always get run over, the candidates have to talk trash on each other to win. It’s not only the trash talking, but candidates also have to look good on TV. They can be complete morons as long as they know the finer points of delivering the perfect moron speech. It’s just the way it is. I don’t like it anymore than anybody else; but, what can I do? I don’t want a revolution. I’ve been all over the world and really like it here. The good here far out weighs the bad. A revolution may make things better, but it can also make things a lot worse.
I have stayed on the sidelines but I now feel the need to speak my piece.
While I have NOTHING but respect for each and every person that has worn a uniform and served in our Military, I do have a problem that anyone that served can sign up for Medical. Now, why anyone would want to go through the VA if they had any other way to get coverage is beyond me. I know of several people that have done this so they would not have to sign up for Obama Care.
When it comes to the Military, is there waste when it comes to spending our money, Oh Hell Yeah! If they want to start cutting they should start at the top. There way of thinking is not that far off of the way the most Marine Companies think. As soon as things get a little tight, let’s lay off they guys on the boats. In all of my years I remember only ONE company laying off office workers, and I am not talking about clerical workers but Port Engineers and Port Captains.
Now this is just me speaking but I tend to lose all respect for anyone that does not support those in our Military. This does not mean that you have to support whatever war or fighting that they are doing but do not disrespect them! Way back when I graduated for High School, most went into the Military for an education and the chance of being shot at or for that matter being asked to shot at anyone was slim to none. This is no longer true and we still have brave men and women enlisting. GOD Bless each and everyone of them!
[QUOTE=Tugs;141268]
Now this is just me speaking but I tend to lose all respect for anyone that does not support those in our Military.[/QUOTE]
You might want to sit down because this will probably twist your knickers pretty tight …
When we had a draft that forced young men to choose between jail or the military your position had a bit more validity. Now that we have an all volunteer force everyone has a choice that is not tilted by fear of prison or banishment. Membership in a military group does not automatically instill honor or accrue respect. History is riddled with examples which make a grotesque lie of the current worship of any and all who join.
I suspect that many of those who manned the guard towers at the camps or participated in the atrocities in Germany, Russia, China, Cambodia and a hundred other nations were volunteers and proudly wore the uniforms of their military. Like I wrote earlier, the Kool Aid handed out since Viet Nam has worked well. We used to talk about Russian propaganda and its power over the population, we have left them in the dust in the race to distort public opinion to further the interests of a handful of powerful corporate manipulators.
When being part of the military is recognized as being part of the problem we might begin to crawl out of the cesspit that Eisenhower and Butler warned us about.
A friend of mine is a Supt at one of the local shipyards. He says that some of the work that they do on navy ships is so trivial its pathetic. Simple stuff like moving handrails or piping and of course the navy pays a premium for them to do it instead of the ships crew. He says the bulk of the navy sailors today have no clue about preventative maitainance.
I know back “in the day” a sailor was expected to do the bulk of the work for their rating on their ship. Welding, piping, painting, small engine rebuilds, stuff like that. I would hate to think what would happen if a ship was damaged in battle and the shipyard crew wasn’t able to get on and fix stuff.
[QUOTE=Steamer;141278]You might want to sit down because this will probably twist your knickers pretty tight …
When being part of the military is recognized as being part of the problem we might begin to crawl out of the cesspit that Eisenhower and Butler warned us about.[/QUOTE]
Just because I tell a kid wearing a uniform “Thanks for your service” doesn’t mean I blindly support our wasteful military industrial complex. I served active duty just 4 years, I didn’t necessarily like it but I volunteered, learned alot and felt I contributed something to our country which sadly most do not. I never drank the Kool Aid when it comes to our current involvement in the areas of the world where democracy won’t work and never will but because I was haze grey and underway there doesn’t mean I was part of the problem.
Aside from all the good points in this thread, there really isn’t much “nationalism” left in this country, we have become the “all for one and one for me” citizen. The rich and powerful protect each other and the middle class carry the brunt of taxes and filling the ranks of our uniformed services. Other countries have a mandatory 1-2 year commitment, either military or public service. They seem to have a more efficient approach to national defense - maybe we should think about this.
[QUOTE=salt’n steel;141307]Just because I tell a kid wearing a uniform “Thanks for your service” doesn’t mean I blindly support our wasteful military industrial complex. I served active duty just 4 years, I didn’t necessarily like it but I volunteered, learned alot and felt I contributed something to our country which sadly most do not. I never drank the Kool Aid when it comes to our current involvement in the areas of the world where democracy won’t work and never will but because I was haze grey and underway there doesn’t mean I was part of the problem.
[/QUOTE]
That’s about how I feel about the my service as well. I spent my time in the sub world and desptie the secrecy that we are legally bound to I keep my mouth shut about most of it out of respect for my country. And yes we did things on my boat and for me it was, “it’s not the reason why but to do and die.” I just did what I was told and tried my hardest to do it. I hated it at the time but look back and smile. I made some good friends on my boat and would hire anyone who was on a submarine. But the waste I saw was disgusting. My time drydocked in a shipyard was an eye opener. I know people who have gone on to Electric Boat and from I understand they just play Risk for about 36 hours a week with the rest of the 40 hours split between bathroom breaks, coffee, and if nothing else: work. I have also seen public sector waste in the world of railroad. After the Navy I worked for a engineering firm who contracted with SEPTA of Philadelphia, MBTA of Boston, and BART of San Francisco. It reminded me of the shipyards with how slow and wasteful everything was. I don’t have a reason why the public sector is so wasteful. I have just seen it.
Why is the public sector so wasteful? Because there is no accountability. A privately owned company answers to its tightfisted owner. A publicly traded company answers to its Board of Directors and its stockholders. As a taxpayer we are essentially stockholders in the Navy, Social Security Administration, Veterans Administration, etc. When is the last time we had a “stockholders” meeting with the Secretaries of these agencies to hold their feet to the fire? Why can’t I ask whomever is in charge why we spent $2.6 million to train prostitutes in China to drink more responsibly while on the job what the F@#& that has to do with us? Or the Secretary of the Securities and Exchange Commission why it cost $3.9 million to rearrange the furniture in their office? Or why it cost $634 million to create a website that has the grace and functionality of an “Intro to Computing” project from the local high school?
Do you really think Gary Chouest would allow this to happen at ECO? Or even Todd Hornbeck at the publicly traded HOS? Hell no! There is accountability in every company not run by the government.
