Offshore slash and burn tactics


#161

[QUOTE=Sand_Pebble;165227]For the vessel I was working on with the C280’s, lack of air pressure would mean electronic shutting down of both main engines resulting in lose of both shaft generators. The emergency stop damper to the turbo inlets shared the same air supply as the starting solenoid. When air pressure was low, we would get an alarm stating, “Low Starting Air Pressure”, then “Low Operating Air Pressure” & then the engines would stop with “Emergency Stop Failure” alarm. So if both ships air compressors failed, only the auxiliary generators & E-Gen would start to provide power to the vessel.

Obviously we made contingency plans of what to do in case of both air compressor failure that included running the engines in E-Mode or running a crossover air pipe from the dry bulk compressor system to the ships air system. After a year of requesting it we received a portable air compressor with a small tank. Once during a 10 day tow the the dipper stick on one of the air compressors crank shaft flung off causing the compressor bearing to lock up due to lack of lubrication. The captain & I felt a lot better with that small compressor on board.[/QUOTE]

So, I still don’t get this, it sounds like it violates some class automation principles, but maybe I’m misreading. Loss of air would mean electronic shutting down? On only one engine or both? Sensor reading from common pipe to both start air motors? How did the electronic shutdown actuate the stopping of engine if not the air inlet (which didn’t have air)?


#162

[QUOTE=Jamesbrown;165235]So, I still don’t get this, it sounds like it violates some class automation principles, but maybe I’m misreading. Loss of air would mean electronic shutting down? On only one engine or both? Sensor reading from common pipe to both start air motors? How did the electronic shutdown actuate the stopping of engine if not the air inlet (which didn’t have air)?[/QUOTE]
A lot of osv engineers are bullshit artists

[QUOTE=Fraqrat;165231] so the engine kept on running… Until you shut it down… or disconnected the batteries.[/QUOTE]
Wow, and you left it set up like that? How did you pass ABS inspections? Did this boat even have a COI? Typical, boat companies bribing people to do whatever fucked up shit they want.


#163

It’s a bad practice closing the air valve on a running C280 or a 3600 engine, sure, close it to repair a leak, but to keep it closed means that you will prevent the guillotine from shutting in the event of an emergency, could cause severe damage from an over speed, there is an air line from the starting air to the asco valve (pilot valve) and from there to the guillotine, it is the same type of valve that allows air to the starters. If your prelube pressure transducer fails and you have prelube pressure you can start the engine from the asco valve by rotating the small lever, you can test your guillotine the same way. It was part of our maintenance to test them.


#164

[QUOTE=caldwell275;165239]It’s a bad practice closing the air valve on a running C280 or a 3600 engine, sure, close it to repair a leak, but to keep it closed means that you will prevent the guillotine from shutting in the event of an emergency, could cause severe damage from an over speed, there is an air line from the starting air to the asco valve (pilot valve) and from there to the guillotine, it is the same type of valve that allows air to the starters. If your prelube pressure transducer fails and you have prelube pressure you can start the engine from the asco valve by rotating the small lever, you can test your guillotine the same way. It was part of our maintenance to test them.[/QUOTE]
Maybe the guillotine air supply should be piped in before the starter air valve. That sounds much safer.


#165

[QUOTE=Jamesbrown;165235]So, I still don’t get this, it sounds like it violates some class automation principles, but maybe I’m misreading. Loss of air would mean electronic shutting down? On only one engine or both? Sensor reading from common pipe to both start air motors? How did the electronic shutdown actuate the stopping of engine if not the air inlet (which didn’t have air)?[/QUOTE]

First let me start off by saying this vessel was not built in the US & not US flagged. We always passed ABS, flag state & port state inspections with no problems.

The vessel had 2 air receivers/accumulator tanks, each air receiver supplied starting air to the machinery on its side of the vessel. The air passed from the receiver to a +/- 2 inche gate valve. After passing through the gate valve the air went to a remote actuated start valve that was normally closed. After the remote actuated start valve the air went directly to the starter housing. The remote actuated start valve was controlled by air pressure via a 24volt solenoid valve. It was also possible to open the actuator by pressing the manual push button on the 24volt solenoid valve. This type of green solenoid valve/arrangement is very common throughout the marine industry. This solenoid valve also supplied air to the bendix of the starter, engaging it into the flywheel as the starter vanes turned. So the 24volt solenoid valve was under air pressure at all times waiting for a crewmember to push a button to start the engine, which is quite common to many vessels. What was odd on this C280-16 was the solenoid valve had a “T” nipple on it that also supplied air to the E-Stop Air Shut Off Damper (Guillotine). This air line also had a pressure sensor on it going to the Caterpillar ECM.

The 2 times I closed the air supply valve to the starter to stop the engines I did not have to reset the damper to restart the engine. So I assume the ECM stopped the engine by its regular means of stopping which was turning off the electronic fuel pump.


#166

Ok, that make makes sense now. Still, nothing was of such in the situation I was talking about


#167

What the fuck are you talking about? The only air required for those engines was to start it. We never had any issues with ABS and in 7 years and we never got an 835. Maybe you haven’t seen every possible engine arrangement for that series in all your vast years of experience. I’ll say it one more time all safety shut downs were electronic not electronic over air just electronic. The only bullshit artist around here is you and your know it all attitude.


#168

and just when everything calmed down, here we go again…


#169

Thanks for the info, Sand Pebble, curious… Was there maybe also an air supply line off this arrangement to the oil mist detector and was that OMD a Visatron?


#170

[QUOTE=Jamesbrown;165251]Thanks for the info, Sand Pebble, curious… Was there maybe also an air supply line off this arrangement to the oil mist detector and was that OMD a Visatron?[/QUOTE]
Yes, the engines did have those types of mist detectors butI don’t recall where the air supply came from. I know I traced it out once because I had to change an air regulator toone of the mist detectors but I don’t recall where it came from. I’m pretty sure it did not “T” off directlyfrom the staring solenoid valve though, perhaps farther down the line.
Now I’m curious if all modern C280’s shut down when thestarting air is lost or only the ones commissioned out of Europe, where thatvessel was built?


#171

Where was your boat built?


#172

[QUOTE=Fraqrat;165246]What the fuck are you talking about? The only air required for those engines was to start it. We never had any issues with ABS and in 7 years and we never got an 835. Maybe you haven’t seen every possible engine arrangement for that series in all your vast years of experience. [/QUOTE]

Start air is used for a lot of things. Every boat I’ve been on, its shared air tanks. The same air tanks for compressed air for air tools, pneumatic valves etc. It does surprise me that that safety shut off sensor and air for the guillotine was installed after the start air valve (and we have all agreed that this is not a regular thing), I don’t know why they would do it that way. The fact that they piped it in after the air valve to me is bizarre, and to me sounds like something that might have been done by mistake, and as other users have implied…is not the norm. But again, [I]start air [/I] is usually shared.

[I]Starting batteries[/I] however, are another story. [I]Starting[/I] batteries are not one big battery bank that branch out into a bunch of different systems, thats one of the reasons they are right there next to the engine, otherwise they would be located elsewhere. Starting batteries on commercial vessels are [I]normally[/I] used [I]only[/I] for starting, while [I]start air[/I] is used for [I]many[/I] things.

Maybe abs and coast guard weren’t looking for very closely. Maybe you have never worked as an electrician, and maybe you are NOT a tech!! It is not good practice to do it, and yes you are right, I have never seen it before [I]on a commercial vessel[/I], but it is not safe. I am not gonna sit here and explain why. I can’t teach a whole electrical course over a forum.

The point is, even in the off chance that it WAS wired up that way…it wasn’t!!! And there was no way it could have been mistaken in this application. I will say it for the millionth time, the guy was just talking bullshit!! He had never even looked at the system. He thought the batteries sole purpose was to be there to run the engine. He didn’t say “maybe its like this”, he ascertained that that was the [I]purpose[/I] of the batteries being there. And it wasn’t [I]just[/I] the batteries, there were so many other things he did and said that were ridiculous! I saw and heard about things like this quite a bit, but this guy really took the cake.

I am getting so tired of talking about this!!

Can we go back to the original subject which is unions!!!

You guys are all the same. If its a female engineer either she doesn’t know shit, or she’s a know it all!!
NO ONE knows it all, there is simply too much scope, super old technology, super new new technology, inventions, changes in design, no one knows it all, not even you Fraq. But it doesn’t take much to know more than some of the fucking retards that are out there!!

Now I am going to change the subject to unions. I am neither for or against them, but the idea of a pension sounds pretty cool.


#173

[QUOTE=cajaya;165256]I am getting so tired of talking about this!!/QUOTE]

then cease and desist in answering back every time someone posts about generator batteries. You have singlehandedly keep this thread off the tracks for over a week now and it needs to simply die and go away!

just for myself and my experience, starting batteries are usually SEPARATE from any control battery on any engine so disconnecting the starting bank WILL NOT cause a diesel to autoshutdown. There might be an alarm saying the engine is not able to start but it would not a critical alarm like oil pressure or jacket water so that would not automatically cause a genset’s automation to shut it down to save itself.

NOW CAN THIS THREAD BE EUTHANIZED? PLEEEZE!


#174

[QUOTE=caldwell275;165253]Where was your boat built?[/QUOTE]
That vessel was finished in Poland. I hear that group of shipyards turn out a lot of boats of similar design each year so I would guess they know what they were doing. That boat treated me very well. I no longer work with the C280’s so I will wait to run across a good Cat Tech & ask their opinion to see if that was/is a standard set up or not.


#175

I wasn’t talking about the other guys boat I was talking about the one I was on. We didn’t have a guillotine installed and I wasn’t talking about start batteries either. The engine had a primary and secondary 24v supply disconnecting both would kill the engine. That part was meant to be a joke aimed at you and your encyclopedic knowledge of batteries. Closing the air valve did nothing but disable the starter as there was nothing else it was piped to. As mentioned the air did pass through the jacking gear so you couldn’t accidentally start the engine with it engaged. I am an electrician and I am also a tech and I don’t need a class from you about anything. I never claimed to know it all but you sure seem to imply that you do. Maybe not everyone is out to get you because you’re a female. Maybe it’s because you put everyone off by projecting the attitude that you’re the smartest person in the room. Listening to you belly ache about being held down and all your shipmates are stupid is getting old. You think you’re the only one who ever went to sea and had hard times? It’s called paying dues and every damn one of us has had to pay them. You chose to go to sea for a living it’s not an easy job or else everyone would be doing it and it wouldn’t pay so well. Showing up for watch isn’t supposed to be like showing up on the set of a Summers Eve commercial.


#176

So you’re telling me an electrically started engine normally has a separate battery bank for engine management etc?


#177

I love this thread.


#178

What about the flux capacitor? Would it shut down too?? :wink:


#179

I wanna be chief fraqrat’s oiler. Sounds like I could learn an awful lot, and be amused at the same time. The man has a way with words.

I wouldn’t want to be cajaya’s oiler. I’d probably be bulimic and a cutter…and do freaky deaky things with alligator clips and a 24v system.


#180

[QUOTE=Sand_Pebble;165252]Yes, the engines did have those types of mist detectors butI don’t recall where the air supply came from. I know I traced it out once because I had to change an air regulator toone of the mist detectors but I don’t recall where it came from. I’m pretty sure it did not “T” off directlyfrom the staring solenoid valve though, perhaps farther down the line.
Now I’m curious if all modern C280’s shut down when thestarting air is lost or only the ones commissioned out of Europe, where thatvessel was built?[/QUOTE]

page 86 (pdf page) of the linked–from what you describe----maybe it looks like that?

http://www.catoilandgasinfo.com/_downloads/lebw0006-00.pdf