Offshore slash and burn tactics


#101

Ah yes your ten years of being a QMED has shown you all the tricks.

Oh it appears you erased those comments I was replying to. Why would you do that? Based on your comments you would be more qualified than all the engineers in the fleet or shoreside fleet maintenance.


#102

[QUOTE=Fraqrat;164872]Ah yes your ten years of being a QMED has shown you all the tricks.

Oh it appears you erased that, why would you do that?[/QUOTE]

You seem to jugle back in forth between licenses matter, and licenses don’t matter. Do they matter for not? You need to make up your mind.


#103

My mind is made up that you seem to think you have everything figured out. My mind is made up that you would convince me there is no difference between a Cat and a B&W engine. I would further assume you would convince me there is no difference between Reintjes or Scana reduction gears. I’ve made up my mind you would tell me there is no difference between Schottel and Thrustmaster Z-drives. Nothing matters anymore and if I can find the hidden manuals for everything I can read them once and be an expert like you.


#104

[QUOTE=cajaya;164866]that generator RUNS off the batteries".[/QUOTE]

If that Engine had a Governor that required DC (Direct Current) in order to run, then he was basically correct.

Now, you have mentioned many times (and yes I read your blog) that you have worked on way too many vessels with different types of machinery to remember what type of said machinery those many vessels had. Well, I have been sailing since the Mid-Seventies (Mid 70’s) I am also the Fifth (5th) Generation of my Family to either sail or work as a Merchant Mariner and I can (even now at my age) sit here and list what the Main Propulsion and Generator Engines were on EVERY Vessel that I ever worked on. Now, I did not work on Steam Plants very much but I also remember those plants.

In my Career sailing as Chief Engineer, I have had Assistants and Un-Licensed Crew of a lot of different Nationalities / Race / Gender and I know for a fact that some were Gay. I personally had NO problem with ANYONE that did their job. I also had no problem teaching those that wanted to learn. I will admit to knowing several Chiefs that did not like to train but I always looked at it as if something happened to me or if I was let go the best thing that could happen is for one of my AE/s to move to the Big Room as that meant that I DID my job.

Now, I will also say that there were some that tried to play whatever card (Race, Sexual…) to try to get out of work but these were a very small percentage of those that I sailed with.

As for calling in Techs, We did all of the repairs ourselves unless the time constrains meant calling in outside help to get job done quicker. Also, Outside Vendors would be called in if it was warrantee work. My last rig had Eleven (11) Diesel Engines on the Barge and the Tug had Five (5) and yes I can tell the make and model of each and everyone of them. There was one company in N.Y.H. (New York Harbor) that sent shore side workers out to change main engine lube oil filters, which I always thought was a joke.

Working on a Tug, OSV or for a lessor manor a ship is like living a Soap Opera. You are stuck on a Floating Tin Can with few places where you can be by yourself but you have to deal with it. If you Cajaya, decide to make a Career of sailing KNOCK the DAMN chip off of your shoulder or work until you can piss off someone bad enough and they do something bad enough to you that you can sue, which in my opinion is what it sounds like you want to do.


#105

[QUOTE=Tugs;164877]If that Engine had a Governor that required DC (Direct Current) in order to run, then he was basically correct.

[/QUOTE]

They were starting batteries. Starting batteries can be used as starting batteries only. Believe me, in this application, there was no way something like that could have been mixed up. That is engineering 101. That was just one example of many things I encountered when working around routiners (they are not all that way), but that was the one that stuck with me the most.

On deep sea commercial ships, its not the qmed’s job to know and/or be in charge of main or auxiliary engines. Sometimes they will let the qmed do some of the routine stuff on the engines or equipment or help out ([I]only[/I] help) when they are working on something. Actually some engineer’s get offended if they see them reading to many manuals and/or asking questions because they would rather them be busy working, cleaning, painting, and/or fabricating (doing things they can’t fuck up). Especially if they are not on there permanently. It is the whole unlicensed vs. licensed thing. They will let them work on auxiliary equipment on their own (but nothing too important) That is for both men and women. I used to be a routiner. I actually learned more about being an engineer when I worked as a tech.

Ships are different than tugs.

No, I don’t want to sue. I want to become a lawyer in my retirement and make these boat companies cringe!! That will be my retirement job. A hobby.

Now if anyone wants to find me to come off me, I will be in the Mediterranean working on a yacht…so good luck getting to me way over there! (After I loose some weight…louisiana food is good).

Au revoir!


#106

“He said “No, it will die and we’ll loose power…that generator RUNS off the batteries”. Yup. And the chief who was lead on that boat agreed with him, and”

A lot of modernish diesels will die if you disconnect the “starting batteries” while the engine is running. I think your Chief was right.


#107

[QUOTE=Yeasty McFlaps;164890]“He said “No, it will die and we’ll loose power…that generator RUNS off the batteries”. Yup. And the chief who was lead on that boat agreed with him, and”

A lot of modernish diesels will die if you disconnect the “starting batteries” while the engine is running. I think your Chief was right.[/QUOTE]

NO, actually that is something that wouldn’t happen. The ONLY time the starting batteries would be sending any electrical current is when the switch is activated to have the batteries send power to the MOTOR STARTER. STARTER being the key word, which disengages shortly after it cranks over the engine to get it STARTED. At which point the engine RUNS off of FUEL and the batteries have NOTHING to do with what is going on after that.

This is like saying that closing the air valve to the air operated starter will cause the engine to stop.

I am not a diesel technician, and have never overhauled an engine or even changed a power pack by myself, but even I know that.

Now, back to me being gone.

Au revoir!


#108

[QUOTE=cajaya;164891]NO, actually that is something that would NEVER happen. The ONLY time the starting batteries would be sending any electrical current is when the switch is activated to have the batteries send power to the MOTOR STARTER. STARTER being the key word, which disengages shortly after it cranks over the engine to get it STARTED. At which point the engine RUNS off of FUEL and the batteries have NOTHING to do with what is going on after that.

This is like saying that closing the air valve to the air operated starter will cause the engine to stop.

I am not a diesel technician, and have never overhauled an engine or even changed a power pack by myself, but even I know that.

Now, back to me being gone.

Au revoir![/QUOTE]

Sorry, but your just plain wrong. But, if you ever have the chance to work in another engine room, you ought to figure it out for yourself, and go ahead and disconnect those batteries while the engine is running, maybe you’ll be able to connect them back again before the breaker trips and you go dead ship. And then you’ll say to yourself, “fuck me, those people were right this whole time. Don’t I feel like a douche nozzle.”


#109

[QUOTE=Yeasty McFlaps;164896]Sorry, but your just plain wrong. But, if you ever have the chance to work in another engine room, you ought to figure it out for yourself, and go ahead and disconnect those batteries while the engine is running, maybe you’ll be able to connect them back again before the breaker trips and you go dead ship. And then you’ll say to yourself, “fuck me, those people were right this whole time. Don’t I feel like a douche nozzle.”[/QUOTE]

I have and I did. Nothing happened. If this really happens, then perhaps you should explain in lamens terms like I have exactly how that works? How can disconnecting a battery that is not connected to anything, make a breaker trip? The battery is DISCONNECTED down the line electrically when the engine is running.

Anyone who knows the BASICS about diesel engines should know that.

I think you are just trying to cover up for someone.

[QUOTE=cajaya;164891]

This is like saying that closing the air valve to the air operated starter will cause the engine to stop.[/QUOTE]


#110

“Laymen’s” not lamens. If your governor is electric(24v) over hydraulic, and not just hydraulic, and it happens to be 24 volt, and it happens to be wired to your batteries, then yes, you will lose power rather quickly. Also if your speed control module is getting power from your batteries, as most do, then you will lose power also. If you are running an old Detroit, with a hydraulic governor, then you won’t lose power. It really depends on your set up. Just disconnect the batteries on each new boat you go on, the first day you get there, and you’ll see what I mean.


#111

[QUOTE=Yeasty McFlaps;164899]“Laymen’s” not lamens. If your governor is electric(24v) over hydraulic, and not just hydraulic, and it happens to be 24 volt, and it happens to be wired to your batteries, then yes, you will lose power rather quickly. Also if your speed control module is getting power from your batteries, as most do, then you will lose power also. If you are running an old Detroit, with a hydraulic governor, then you won’t lose power. It really depends on your set up. Just disconnect the batteries on each new boat you go on, the first day you get there, and you’ll see what I mean.[/QUOTE]

Starting batteries will never be used for anything other than starting. As I stated earlier, in this particular application there was NO WAY something like that could have been mixed up. There was a 24v bus, the other generators were air started. That one was battery started.
Battery STARTED, this was a larger vessel, not some little fishing boat.


#112

[QUOTE=cajaya;164900]Starting batteries will [B][B]never[/B][/B] be used for anything other than starting. As I stated earlier, in this particular application there was NO WAY something like that could have been mixed up.[/QUOTE]

I’m no engineer but disconnecting a battery from a running piece of equipment sounds like bad practice to me. A battery is used for starting power but also acts to help stabilize the circuit. Seems like it would be smarter to shut it down if you want to do some work rather then risk damaging something. I’d hate to learn something new about engine control systems the hard way.


#113

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;164902]I’m no engineer but disconnecting a battery from a running piece of equipment sounds like bad practice to me. A battery is used for starting power but also acts to help stabilize the circuit. Seems like it would be smarter to shut it down if you want to do some work rather then risk damaging something. I’d hate to learn something new about engine control systems the hard way.[/QUOTE]

Yes, it [I]is[/I] bad practice but its not going to do anything. Starting batteries are used for starting [B]only[/B]. They would never or should never be used for anything else. Like I said, there was a 24v bus. Maybe someone who wants to wire up their boat at their house might do it.

What could happen is if the engine was on some kind of automatic restart and it died at that moment somehow by chance and then tried to restart and pull all those amps from the battery to crank the engine over, and the cable terminals are not both on tight, it could explode. That is probably a one in a million chance…but it could happen.


#114

If it’s a newer engine with an ECM, it depends on the charging circuit and how the ECM is energized. I have had an emergency generator that would shut down if disconnected from the batteries. The charger originally was energized off the main lighting branch and would power the ECM for tests. If the main generators were shut down and the emergency gen was on line, if the battery was disconnected the engine would shut down. We corrected the design flaw by tying the charger to the emergency buss.

There are several different scenarios that could occur with retrofits of older equipment.


#115

[QUOTE=injunear;164909]If it’s a newer engine with an ECM, it depends on the charging circuit and how the ECM is energized. I have had an emergency generator that would shut down if disconnected from the batteries. The charger originally was energized off the main lighting branch and would power the ECM for tests. If the main generators were shut down and the emergency gen was on line, if the battery was disconnected the engine would shut down. We corrected the design flaw by tying the charger to the emergency buss.

There are several different scenarios that could occur with retrofits of older equipment.[/QUOTE] Yes, batteries…but were they -starting- batteries? I feel like I am gonna get blue in the face.

Some engines will have the starting battery/batteries, and batteries for other things right next to one another. Especially on smaller boats, like way smaller. Actually the ONLY place, I have ever seen that was on a sport fisher, it might have been that way on other smaller yachts I worked on too but I don’t know because I was there working on a different system. In any case, when the batteries are right next to each other like that, it can be easy to get mixed up. This was not the case in this situation. All electronic control were powered from the 24 v panel which came from an entirely different place entirely. I did not see any engines in that fleet that used batteries for anything other than starting, and I have never been on a commercial vessel that did either.

Besides, that was just one of the things. The other one was trying to explain why it was important to address HUGE electrical grounds on some VERY important pieces of equipment, and that it is not something that you can just ignore. He just looked starry eyed. One of the “best”. The stories could go on. That was just one example, and one person.


#116

I worked in many older vessels in my Turdwater days where other things were run from the batteries on the one electric start generator. Over speed, E stop shut down solenoid, governor etc. all pulled from the two 8 D’s the starter was wired to. Maybe the guy was old school and just didn’t want to chance it. Or maybe you’re just smarter than the rest of us and can be 100% sure by eye sight alone. I know I don’t trust anything until I know for sure what will happen. With a generator that means running a scenario tied up at the dock while its offline or in parallel to keep from going dark ship. You can also learn all of this stuff while doing PSTP/FMEA testing or at the very least reading the previous test reports. There is a section on each test labeled “expected results”.


#117

[QUOTE=Fraqrat;164915]I worked in many older vessels in my Turdwater days where other things were run from the batteries on the one electric start generator. Over speed, E stop shut down solenoid, governor etc. all pulled from the two 8 D’s the starter was wired to. Maybe the guy was old school and just didn’t want to chance it. Or maybe you’re just smarter than the rest of us and can be 100% sure by eye sight alone. I know I don’t trust anything until I know for sure what will happen. With a generator that means running a scenario tied up at the dock while its offline or in parallel to keep from going dark ship. You can also learn all of this stuff while doing PSTP/FMEA testing or at the very least reading the previous test reports. There is a section on each test labeled “expected results”.[/QUOTE]
He said it with such conviction


#118

While this is all related to boats, I’m going to make a point by saying cars have starting batteries, that also, as said by someone else, stabilize the current to run all the electronics in the vehicle.

While it would be best to use a deep cycle battery, if you’re planning to run down the battery regularly and then recharge, a starting battery, while constantly being supplied with power from, in a boats case a constavolt, can be used to run electronics as it isn’t allowed a chance to lose charge and is, as once again said before, used to stabilize the current.


#119

I’m not an engineer, but this tugboat has two electric start mechanical Cummins 5.9 liter 1800 rpm generators (with no ECMs). The starting batteries (two 8Ds for each engine) also power the electric fuel shutdown solenoids on the injection pumps. If power from the batteries or Constavolt is lost to the injection pump solenoid, the generator immediately shuts down. This type of set up is quite common.

Only a fool would disconnect the “starting” batteries on a running generator without knowing for certain how that might effect the operation of the generator.


#120

[QUOTE=Rain Wizard;164942]While this is all related to boats, I’m going to make a point by saying cars have starting batteries, that also, as said by someone else, stabilize the current to run all the electronics in the vehicle.

While it would be best to use a deep cycle battery, if you’re planning to run down the battery regularly and then recharge, a starting battery, while constantly being supplied with power from, in a boats case a constavolt, can be used to run electronics as it isn’t allowed a chance to lose charge and is, as once again said before, used to stabilize the current.[/QUOTE]
Cars use chassis. A 300ft supply boat is not a car. A constavolt is a battery charger, which charges the starting batteries so they can recharge after being used for starting. 120vac going in, and 12 or 24vdc going out. It can be used for any battery such as batteries for electronics, and not just starting batteries. If u walked up to it and turned it off with the engine running. Nothing would happen. At all. A constavolt which is for starting batteries supplies power to the starting batteries which are connected to nothing when the engine is running, which is why they do nothing but store the charge that is being supplied to them.

      • Updated - - -

[QUOTE=tugsailor;164948]I’m not an engineer, but this tugboat has two electric start mechanical Cummins 5.9 liter 1800 rpm generators (with no ECMs). The starting batteries (two 8Ds for each engine) also power the electric fuel shutdown solenoids on the injection pumps. If power from the batteries or Constavolt is lost to the injection pump solenoid, the generator immediately shuts down. This type of set up is quite common.

Only a fool would disconnect the “starting” batteries on a running generator without knowing for certain how that might effect the operation of the generator.[/QUOTE]
I’m talking a large supply boat, not a tug. I think you should go re examine these “starting” batteries. You might be surprised. New high tech engines with high tech control systems on a LARGE boat. It is bad practice I admit, but not for the reasons that were stated. As I stated a million times over, in this application, there was no way something like that could have been mixed up. Even from prior experience and the guy hadn’t worked in the engine department that long. I had been on the vessel where he got all his e/r time and there was definitely no set up that might make someone think that.

If that is true about your setup, than I am sorry for you. I have never seen anything like that and it sounds like a safety issue to me. So are you saying that the battery is not able to supply power at all if the constavolt that charges it looses power? That sounds a little scary and like you might need a new battery. Or is it able to supply power for a limited amount of time, and you hope you can figure out the constavolt lost is 120v power in time?

As I stated earlier, that was just one example.