Europe has a much bigger population than Russia and a successful industrialized economy several times larger. Most of Russia is still an impoverished Stalinist shithole. Russia has vast mineral and oil wealth and should be a wealthy country, but it’s a corrupt, mismanaged and nearly bankrupt nation.
If Europe is not willing to spend enough of its vastly superior wealth to defend itself from the Russians, let the Russians have them.
I see no reason why I should be paying 40 percent taxes, plus buying my own medical insurance, to defend Europe when they are unwilling to pay for a small portion of their own defense.
Hang on there!!
Norway’s unemployment is at it’s highest in decades due to the oil crisis, created by over production in, among other places, USA.
BTW: Norway is also refusing to reduce it’s production, but it is falling from natural reasons.
The facts: Unemployment Rate in Norway averaged 3.58 percent from 1997 until 2017, reaching an all time high of 4.90 percent in July of 2016 and a record low of 2.30 percent in April of 2008.
If you want to make a fair comparison the Labour Participation Rate has to be taken into consideration as well. In Norway it is abt. 70% on average, while in USA it is 63% only.
You seams to confuse things a bit when it comes to NATO. It was established AFTER WWII, as much to benefit America in it’s fight against the Communist treat to “the American way of life” as to protect Europe from invasion by "the Soviet hordes."
As mentioned by Kraken, the only NATO member that has benefited from Article 5 so far is USA.
I hope that you understand that the BS about a Norwegian Super Aircraft carrier is only a part of the “feud” between Fraqrat (the self-styled “Ambassador to Norway”) and myself . Not to be taken serious. In fact, this entire thread is a lighthearted “Norwegian bashing” to get away from the SAD!! State of the World.
Why would Norway build an Aircraft carrier anyhow? The new fighter planes we are getting from USA at inflated prices couldn’t land on it and Norway has no ambition to rule the world by military means. (The Maritime World is within our reach by superior technology already)
I know this threat is about the Norwegian Navy, but as is our tradition I will make a post that is about the US. Last night I had the honor to hear our new national anthem which is to replace the old one sung by Lee Greenwood. I’m a little bit embarrassed that it was performed by Germans, but they honor us by doing a great job. Here it is for your enjoyment.
Like I said, let the ungrateful Europeans spend their own money to defend themselves from the Russians.
If the US is attacked by Russia, China, North Korea, or Iran, and the US invokes Article 5, what do you think our so-called European allies are actually going to do to defend us? They are not going to a damn thing except talk talk talk.
The US defended the rest of Europe and Russia during WWII from Hitler. And loaned a lot of money to most countries in Europe. Without those loans, those countries would not have survived. If we hadn’t done this, the Europeans would all be speaking German today. Most European countries have still not paid their war debts.
After WWII, the US rebuilt and defended Europe from Russia. If we hadn’t, the Europeans would all be speaking Russian now.
NATO is a massive US paid welfare program for the benefit of Europe. We paid for most of the costs of NATO for the past 70 years. At one time, the US benefitted from NATO, but there is very little benefit to the US now. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Russians have not been a threat to the US. Nor would the bankrupt Russians be a significant threat to Western Europe. If only Western Europe would make a reasonable effort to defend itself.
If Russia were to take back the Baltics, Article 5 notwithstanding, Western Europe would not do a damn thing about it. Fortunately, as we have seen, Russia is too weak and bankrupt to even take over Ukraine.
Times have changed. The US is no longer the powerful economy that it once was. The US can no longer afford to fund most of the European defense. What is more, the Europeans have no appreciation whatsoever ever for what we have done, and continue to do for them. It’s time for the US to let Europe defend itself.
Probably because they don’t have any intention to attacking you. (Unless you fire first, that is)
The last two doesn’t have the ability to attack you in any meaningful way anyhow, verbal attack exempted.
Last time you were attacked, not by any state but by a ragtag band of terrorists and disgruntled religious fanatic with box cutter, Article 5 was invoked and your NATO allies helped you attack a country from which none of your attackers originated.
OK, when you decided to attack another country, which had even less to do with it, only one NATO country were willing to assist.
Well, I guess that the oil crisis is only happening to the good people of Norway! As for the 200,000+ that have been laid off as a result in the US? A lot have headed West to work for those dumb rednecks that managed to make shale oil cost effective at these prices and thus, continuing our push for energy independence. And also a lot are working in solar power energy. Another resource you can’t really use there in Norway, since you only get a couple days of sunlight a year anyway. We’ll continue to sell you overpriced fighter planes, as long as you continue to need/buy them. As for NATO, while I’m sure you think that may have been the case when it was formed, it certainly isn’t now. Again, you are welcome. As for the light hearted banter between you and Fraqrat that this thread originally started as, I am always in for a good argument with guys like you, so I’ll take it up for entertainment any chance I get when I need an easy win.
I think it’s all a load of horse shit. The people who are getting rich selling weapons don’t care who pays. All this “make Europe pay for NATO” is just our President pandering to the neo-con branch of the Libertarians. Whomever is really in charge over here likes it just fine the way it is. As long as gas is cheap, the voters will continue to like it too. These weapons don’t protect Europeans from Russian aggression, just look at the Ukraine. They don’t protect us because nobody is going to attack us, not Russia, not China, definitely not Iran, maybe the Norks. I mean that Kim Jong Il guy might just be that crazy, but I don’t think so, he just wants more free food and stuff. We sure did miss a good opportunity to nip that in the bud though.
Personally, I think we in the US are in danger of defeating ourselves the way we defeated the USSR, the Chinese know it and are winning economically by doing little more than educating their children and hoarding raw materials; and manufacturing all our junk.
You are at least right on one thing; you don’t know.
I have two sons who served several tours of duty in Afghanistan with the Norwegian Army. My oldest son did his last stint in the US HQ Ops Room, for which he got a US medal in a ceremony at the US Embassy in Oslo a few months ago.
If we keep on our present course the United States will go the way of the Soviet Union and financially collapse from debt and a corrupt political system. Only a fool thinks peace will last when the United States goes broke. Russia and China are getting ready. Their neighbors should be getting ready as well.
Russia has already resumed its Cold War by the hacking of finance, industry and political institutions, encouraging a refugee crisis in Syria plus an land grab in Ukraine. China is ascendant with its industry and technology and has started to flex its muscle abroad.
You would think that Europe would want to defend itself. Yet Europe is insulted and repulsed by the suggestion that it spend more on its own defense? It’s boggling.
Russia doesn’t want the Baltics, nor the Ukraine at all. What they do want is a sovereign nation, under their sphere of influence, to act as a buffer state between them and an ever expanding NATO. What would be our reaction if the Russians placed 5,000 soldiers and a Ballistic Missle Defense System in Chihuahua Province, Mexico?
It also needs to be mentioned that’s a sizeable amount of Ukrainians, especially in the eastern regions are ethnic Russians whose protection Russia takes very seriously. Since Yanukovich was removed through western intervention I haven’t found a single Ukrainian who feels their life has improved. On the contrary they feel that life is much worse.
The current geopolitical situation is representative of an emerging multi-polar world. The present Russian situation is a great example. Our animosity with the Russians is about gaining market share in the petroleum market (namely Nat Gas) not about ideology, which precisely why our European Partners will never advocate nor assist in conflict with the Bear. Example: Congress has just approved the widening of sanctions to Russia’s North and South stream pipeline projects, a move that Europe has not only condemned but threatened the US with retaliation over them. We square off with Russia or China we will be alone and the result will be economically disastrous at best or leathal to all life on the planet at worse.
Ombugge is right here. There is a steep cost to the US maintaining its Hegemony but that doesn’t mean that the Europeans aren’t freeloading, because they are and who could blame them. As long as we are stupid enough to throw money at them they will take it. Just don’t expect them to be there when you need them.
Sorry, you haven’t had your easy win yet, for that you have to learn a bit more about the real world and a few facts about the oil & Gas Industry:
[quote=“cchick001, post:27, topic:45586, full:true”]
Well, I guess that the oil crisis is only happening to the good people of Norway! As for the 200,000+ that have been laid off as a result in the US? A lot have headed West to work for those dumb rednecks that managed to make shale oil cost effective at these prices and thus, continuing our push for energy independence. [/quote]
True, a lot of American is hurting because the oil price is low, but even more is rejoicing. Both in Norway and USA it is a small percentage of the population that is hurting but you apply the relative number to the total population I think you will find more happy Americans. The Norwegians that is affected doesn’t suffer any real hardship anyhow, given the generous unemployment benefits supplied by the welfare state.
You may think that the technology used to do horizontal drilling and fracking is something invented by rednecks in the last decades or so? Well, you are wrong again.
Fracking is an old “art” that has been used both onshore and offshore least since I got in, some 45 years ago.
Feasibility of Horizontal Drilling within a narrow oil or gas bearing strata was first proven by Norsk Hydro in the Troll Field in 1989/90. The first year they drilled in a layer that was only 5 m. wide between the water below and the gas above. If the drill bit had entered either, the project would have been a failure. They were never more than a meter from the planned trajectory, which was only 1.5 m. above oil/water interface.
The next year the test drilling was done in an even narrower strata and the horizontal section was extended to 8000 m. (Figures from memory)
How do I know this? Because I was Relief Marine Superintendent at Norsk Hydro during the summer holidays both years and sat in on the morning meetings. The first report pulled out every day was for the rig that was drilling those wells.
This made it possible to produce the thin oil layers in the Troll Field, which had until then been regarded as a very large gas field, with some annoying associated oil. (BTW; Troll Oil is still in production)
Wrong again!! (You’r making a habit of this?)
Solar energy is feasible in Norway since the hours of daylight and night is the same anywhere, only that in Norway it comes in lumps.
Besides, a Norwegian company is among the leading producers of Solar panels, with operations in several countries, incl. USA.
Another Norwegian company specializes in setting up and managing large Solar Parks in places were the length of day and night is more even, like in the Sahara dessert and others.
Not sure there will be another time.
Me no understand???
What is “I think” that is wrong? What is NATO’s role now that I miss?? And what the h*ll am I welcome to???
Now, don’t pull a Trump and declare a win in face of defeat.
Now you are just whining while bloviating, a common practice for you. Great that you personally developed fracking - you sure hadn’t figured out how to do it cost effectively (I know it’s a stretch, but do try to follow your own instructions and read an entire post) - the dumb rednecks did that. Good on ya for making solar panels - I wasn’t speaking about the actual time the sun is above the horizon in Norway you obtuse gas bag, I was talking about the clouds continuously covering said sun. Talk about making a habit out of being wrong. It’s almost like he’s got Tourette’s or something! Highly entertaining - again, thanks for the easy win!
You actually believe this, or you just regurgitating old American believes that has been around for decades??
If you read history not produced for American consumption and flag waving, you’ll find that the war in Europe was won by the Soviets, after some tremendous losses in lives, property + human and economic suffering, both during and after the war. They had some help in military equipment from the Americans, but it did not amount to large quantities.
One operation that MAY have been as important as any single battle in the East, Stalingrad include, or the entire campaign on the Western front, was the action against the Heavy Water factory and transport in Rukan, Norway, carried out by a small band of Norwegian Special Forces and Resistance fighter respectively. This stopped the Germans from developing atomic weapons before the war in Europe ended.
Europe was divided into the Soviet and American sphere of influence by the Jalta Agreement, which gave the Russians their cherished buffer zone against future attack from Western Europe. (They had a lot of experience with that)
Americas leaders got control and bases in the West and a shield against Communist influence on the US population, which could have spelled the end of Capitalism as we know it. Heaven forbid that American workers should get some ideas about Socialism and start to demand social welfare.
Even worse, they want a say so in the manufacturing process and management of capital. That could lead to intolerable conditions, similar to the Scandinavian model.
There is one thing Trump has accomplished in his short reign so far. He has convinced the Europeans that they have to take control of their own security and defence.
This will not necessarily be in a NATO setting, controlled by America though.
The process had already started, but with Brexit and the election of Trump to the “throne” in Washington, the need has become more urgent for a Pan-European force.
This force will not necessarily only be drawn from EU member. Britain and Norway is likely to join. Switzerland and even some Balkan states may be invited.
Much will depend on how things develop in Russia in the nearest few years and if America actually move towards isolation.