Norway is really awesome

[ombugge]

@Fraqrat

Wait wait wait… Norway doesn’t have the shipyard capacity to build something this big??? You mean there is something to do with shipbuilding that Norway can’t do? This has to be #fakenews!

Yes there are no yards with a building dock capable of building large hulls like this. The last VLCC built in Norway was back in the 1970’s, when the large yards switched to build rigs, jackets and platform decks and other equipment for the oil industry in Norway and abroad.The small yard continued building smaller and more specialized vessels from scratch, but nowadays most of the simple hull construction are subcontracted to yards with lower labor costs. (Whether Norwegians or imported workers doesn’t matter, labour cost is the same when the work is performed in Norway)

Oh and why is it an unrealistic demand by the Norwegian union that Norwegians want it built in Norway?

It is unrealistic because there are no yards with capacity to do so and unrealistic to create a yard for this one job.

The cost would have been 2 to 3 times what it cost to build abroad. Only Americans are willing to do something that stupid out of nationalistic pride.

[Snusmumriken]

Not pride. I just want to keep my job. Thank you.

[DamnYankee]

@ombugge

It is unrealistic because there are no yards with capacity to do so and unrealistic to create a yard for this one job.

But, but, but. I thought Norway was the standard bearer of modernization and adaptability in ship building???

[ombugge]

Norway is in the forefront for Ship Design, Marine Equipment development, building and outfitting of specialized vessels for the Offshore industry, (incl. deepwater mining) Fishing vessels, Live Fish Carriers and of late, Expedition Yachts for Polar operations.
Even so, the hulls are mostly built in places with lower labour cost, since it is uneconomical to do so in Norway/NW Europe. (It is not allowed to pay foreign workers less if they are doing the job in Norway/ NWE)
Norwegian designs and marine equipment are also widely sold internationally, incl. to USA.

Building large ships, like VLCCs, VLOCs, VLNGs, Mega Container carriers etc. is not economical in Norway, or anywhere else in North West Europe/EU. The only large ships built in EU countries are the Mega Cruise ships built in Italy, France, Germany and Finland.
Why would Norway construct a yard that will only be used to build a one-off vessel, when it can be done much cheaper other places?

Delivery of equipment incl. commissioning, installation, maintenance and servicing during a 20 year life cycle, will give jobs for many Norwegians. The extra cost of construction in Norway (assuming there were a yard able to do so) is estimated at 25-30%, which may or may not be enough to make the field uneconomical. If it becomes economical to develop the field by building the FPSO somewhere else, so be it.

Like all other major ship owning nations (incl. USA) most standard bulk carriers, tankers and PCTCs etc. owned by Norwegian companies are now built in China, with more complex ships, like VLNGs, still mostly built in S.Korea.

The same applies to Offshore Rigs, with Singapore being a competitor, especially for Jackup rigs of own designs. Conversion or building of FPSO/FSRU and FLNG units are also mostly done in those three countries as well.
Why is that? Because market forces are governing where things are built, not Governments and/or Unions.

US Shipowners hold a large fleet of ships in international trade (5th largest by GT) and US Drilling Contractors are among the largest owners of Offshore Drilling rig/Drillships, but nearly none of them are built in USA, or NW Europe theses days. They still give work to a sizable number of Americans in Management, Operation and related services.

In the Drilling industry there are also a large number of Americans working on the rigs, but admittedly, very few on the US owned merchant ships and cruise ships.

So your conclusion is???

[betweenthebuoys]

Thank you for the information?

[ombugge]

You are welcome. You are free to fact check, if there should be any doubt about the accuracy of the information,

[KPChief]

@ombugge

So your conclusion is???

My conclusion is: when the topic is Norway you recognize “market forces” but when you speak about USA you only see government policy and long standing laws as limiting potential as if economic factors play no role.

There are probably at least 6 shipyards in the US in existence that could build that vessel if someone wants to pay for it. So while the economics are not there, the physical capacity is there. Unlike Norway. Perhaps you need to introduce the “Bjorn Act” to protect what’s left of your shipbuilding industry.

Also do you really think Norwegians are the only people who can provide, install and commission modern process machinery, equipment and systems? In fact I find it hard to believe your owners are any less greedy than those in the rest of the world so why they allow themselves to be forced into completing vessels in Norway is very strange unless…unless…there is some law or tax advantages being offered. But no that couldn’t be, they’re doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. You are lucky indeed.

[ombugge]

hang on there. i was talking about international shipping and shipbuilding. Norwegian Owners and Yards are part of that international market place, as is most American Owners with ships in international trade.
Why do Norwegian Shipyards manage to compete for orders from Norwegian Owners??. Because they can deliver quality vessels with sophisticated equipment at competitive costs, in competition with foreign (European and Asian) shipyards. No subsidies or laws requiring them to do so. Finance arrangement through GIREK is not dependent on where the vessels are built, or who is the Owner.

Why does foreign companies order ships in Norway? For the same reasons as above. You want examples of companies that have been building vessels in Norway lately?? OK, what about Tidewater, ECO, DeBeer, Siemens, Maersk Supply, Krauz Subsea. At present there are several Expedition Yachts and small Cruise ships on order for foreign Owners, not to mention large Fishing vessels for UK, Ireland, Canada and Spain.

No Norwegians are not the only ones that can provide, install and commission modern process machinery, equipment and systems, but a lot of such equipment is designed and produced in Norway and exported to the world market. Just have a look around you in the GoM, incl. on the Drilling rigs and newer boats.
My point was that a lot of the equipment on that particular FPSO would be made in Norway, even if the hull is built in Korea. When she gets here the installation and commissioning will be done by (mostly) Norwegians. During 20 years of operation the service and maintenance, will be (mostly) done by Norwegians. Thus, to build the big hull abroad is not necessarily a bad thing.
If an American yard could compete, why not there??

I have no idea what the “Bjorn Act” is and I do not think that ALL Norwegian Owners are angles. (I have worked for some that was anything but)
All I can say is that the family owned companies run by people that has been seafarers themselves, are VERY different from the large Corporations, run by Financiers and Wall Street speculators. The big worry here now is that American Hedge funds are going to take over some of the locally owned companies. (They are sniffing)

[KPChief]

@ombugge

Finance arrangement through GIREK is not dependent on where the vessels are built, or who is the Owner.

Never heard of this but from their web site it appears it is dependent.

Useful to exporters, buyers and banks
Exporters have a key selling point when GIEK issues a AAA-rated government loan guarantee for their buyer.

Buyers find it easier to realise their projects when a GIEK buyer credit guarantee secures the financing. But we insist that they buy Norwegian.

Who can apply?
GIEK must confirm that the buyer wants the guarantee, and that the purchase is being made from a Norwegian supplier. That is why we ask the buyer and the seller both to submit applications.

The buyer’s application may be filled out by its bank.f

But hey dude that was just mostly tongue in cheek response to what I found to be a logically tortured response (post 44) to some good natured ribbing aimed at your ceaseless extolling of the Norwegian way.

By the way the Bjorn Act is a new law being proposed by the new US ambassador to Norway @Fraqrat

When passed by the Norwegian legislature your boats will all be built along the US gulf coat and shipped to Norway.

Oh look here comes a shipment now. Oh and sorry no Norwegian survey work for the tow either. That has to be done by a resident of Wayne County Mississippi.

[Fraqrat]

To help with passage of the Bjorn Act a gulf coast shipyard has built a state of the art MPSV on spec to send as a gift to Norway. My spies tell me a certain individual was seen taking delivery of the vessel to personally deliver it to Sunnmøre. I can’t quite make out who’s manning the bridge tho.

A second shipyard has also built a state of the art OSV design on spec to send over for the Norwegian Maritime academies to use for training.

[DeepSeaDiver]

Whats important is the flag, not the master. You crack me up…

[ombugge]

Yes I know it was not a vicious attack on me personally, but a good chance to “educate” you guys abit more on how things works in the real world of shipping, using Norway as a model.

GIEK (sorry about the extra letter in my last post) finance all kinds of Norwegian export, just like EXIM Bank in the US, You conveniently (deliberately?) quoted from the page about general goods, while GIEK has a special arrangement for “Maritime and Offshore”:

Maritime and Offshore

Here you will find that GIEK finance vessels built in Norwegian yards regardless of owner’s nationality or flag.

They also finance building at foreign yards as long as Norwegian equipment is involved (min. 30%) regardless of whether the owners is Norwegian or not.

Not unlike US EXIM Bank?:
https://www.exim.gov/news/ex-im-bank-supports-alabama-companys-export-oil-industry-vessels-nigeria

PS> Nice picture of hull sections for one of 6 Maersk AHTS under building at Kleven. (Arriving from Poland I believe)

[ombugge]

Thank you for the gift of a “stat-of-the-art” American MPSV, which is obviously the ultimate of uS shipbuilding technology.
In return we’ll send you one of the newer CSVs to do the actual work, (But only on “Project basis”):

PS> Don’t know if it was a deliberate insult, but that “Norwegian flag” is turned the wrong way.

[Traitor_Yankee]

You know I did a spot job to that vessel once. The master was a real cock.

[ombugge]

Ohh I just remember that there is already an American built boat operating in Norway, the BB Lifter:
Seen here while assisting in the loading of a barge on the HLV Tai An Kou in Stavanger in 2011:

Here from Shipspotting:
http://www.shipspotting.com/gallery/photo.php?lid=867481

I’m afraid there isn’t that much left of the original vessel, built somewhere along the Gulf coast in 1973.
Seen here as the Forties Moon:

[ombugge]

You know I did a spot job to that vessel once. The master was a real cock.

You mean his crowing woke you up in the morning?

Or maybe he was not a believer in American exceptionalism, or superiority??

What were you doing on this vessel anyhow? I thought working on foreign ships was too low paid to be considered by highly paid American mariners?

[Traitor_Yankee]

@ombugge

You know I did a spot job to that vessel once. The master was a real cock.

You mean his crowing woke you up in the morning?

Or maybe he was not a believer in American exceptionalism, or superiority??

What were you doing on this vessel anyhow? I thought working on foreign ships was too low paid to be considered by highly paid American mariners?

I think you’ll find I’m not one of the “America number one” crowd, we do some things right, and some things not so right. Unlike the Norwegians I guess.

I was on a supply boat bringing them pipe, and the entire evolution the master wanted done was dangerous and ignorant. Of course our company made it even worse by not keeping us at the dock long enough to get some of the equipment we needed.
He also tried to push us into working on the windward side in 30-35 knots in a drift on scenario, by saying “they do this in the North Sea all of the time.”

[ombugge]

@Traitor_Yankee

I think you’ll find I’m not one of the “America number one” crowd, we do some things right, and some things not so right. Unlike the Norwegians I guess.

You guess wrong and are wrong in assuming that I believe so.
As I have said many times; I do not believe that any race or nationality are superior or exceptional. There are exceptional people of all races and with any nationalities.
Einstein was an exceptional person, but was that because he was Jewish, or because he was a German national? (before he became an American national, that is)

I was on a supply boat bringing them pipe, and the entire evolution the master wanted done was dangerous and ignorant. Of course our company made it even worse by not keeping us at the dock long enough to get some of the equipment we needed.
He also tried to push us into working on the windward side in 30-35 knots in a drift on scenario, by saying “they do this in the North Sea all of the time.”

Well, him being used to the more capable pipe carriers in the North Sea and elsewhere, he probably suffered a cultural shock when coming to the GoM.
Here is a typical North Sea pipe carrier of “vintage” age:
http://www.unlimitedoffshore.com/single-post/2015/12/18/DP2-Supply-VesselPipe-Carrier-open-in-Germany
The newer ones have a lot more propulsion and thruster power.

I had the same experience in reverse when I did my first rig move in the North Sea in 1980;
I was used to simple low powered OSVs of the typical GoM standard of the 1970’s
A crane on the rig had broken down and we had to pass a heavy 20" rope to an AHT. I asked the skipper if he thought he could come in close enough to pass it by heaving line and messenger?
He “parked” his boat a couple of feet off the side of the rig and asked me; “Is that close enough for you” in an insulted voice. We didn’t even need a heaving line, the rope was passed by hand.

To me it was an eye opener. In the Java Sea anything over 6 ft. seas and 30 kts. wind would stop not only boats but even helicopter operations.

I had watched boats coming in the moor stern to the rig, perform a perfect “fish hook turn”, drop their anchor and back up, only to miss the rig by a100 ft. or more.

I was amazed at the development that had been in the North Sea, even then. The UT 704 AHTS and UT 705 Pipe carries where quantum leap ahead of anything I had worked with in S.E.Asia.
Since then the development has done another leap, both in terms of vessel capabilities and crew training requirements.

Here is a modern PSV/Pipe carrier of the type that “Cock” was probably used to work with:
https://www.havyard.com/products/references/kongsborg/

Now, I don’t know what type of boat you were on, so I cannot compare, but you can.

[Capt_Phoenix]

Just because North Sea operations have to push the safety margins in order to ever get work done doesn’t mean when they go to other areas of the world they can get away with being similarly unsafe.

[Snusmumriken]

It’s quite the opposite.