Navy and South China Sea


#1

You keep on telling use how superior the USN is to other navies in term of what it can do, at least in theory. Being able to train at fighting yesteryears wars is one thing, but doing anything sensible in today’s reality may be a different kettle of tea.

Yes you can project power by sailing close to the coast of China and their newly crated islands in the South China Sea, but does it really accomplice anything?
Does it look like China is being scared into submission from seeing a US destroyer sailing passed within a few meters from the 12 mile limit, with an oversized Stars & Strips flying?

China (and Russia) has their own “eyes in the sky” to know where US warships are located at all times and missiles to hit them from a distance of several thousand miles.
Even if you can detect the launch and determine trajectory shortly after, are you able to blow them out of the sky before they hit your ships?

If China should get aggressive and send their ships on a “Freedom of Navigation” mission 12 miles off the USWC, would you be able to handle it like the Chinese handle your provocations? (By give warning on VHF and send some fighter jets to buzz the ships in international waters)

“Freedom” is not a prerogative of USA. Other nations have the right to pursue their freedom by whatever means at their disposal, as long as they don’t interfere with other nations freedom.


USS J McCain / Alnic MC collision near Singapore
USS J McCain / Alnic MC collision near Singapore
#2

China claims the entire SCS as its private lake, and doesn’t believe that anyone else has a right to use it without their permission. International courts have repeatedly ruled against their claims and the construction of artificial islands. We have mutual defense treaties with the Philippines and Taiwan, two of the smaller claimants that China would have already swept aside if not for our protection. We are there to remind the Chinese that those waters are international, and that all nations have a right to use them. We learned the lessons of history, and know that it is better to nip aggression in the bud rather than let it spread and deal with it only once it is raging out of control. We did the same thing with Gadaffi’s “Line of Death” back in the 80s.

You attribute all of these magical powers to Russia and China, and act like we’re a bunch of backwards morons. You will have to forgive me if I don’t worry about a Goldeneye sinking our ships being operated by the same country that has to deploy a rescue tug with its flagship to tow it back to port when it breaks down. The Chinese would be a tougher nut to crack, but I will take our sub commanders with a pent-up urge to sink surface ships and a full inventory of MK48 ADCAPs over any task force the Chinese organized.

And although I don’t think that anyone would ever state it for the record, we would love it if China came over here and did some FONOPS. As long as they stayed on the right side of the 12nm territorial water limit, they would be legitimizing all of our patrols off of their coast. The most I expect we would do would be to tail them with a DDG. But I wouldn’t hold your breath on this happening - sailing a force off our coast is one thing, sustaining one is quite another. Just one of the many lessons we learned fighting yesterday’s war.


#3

Has China threatened to close the South China Sea, or any other waters to lawfull passage by any other nation?

The dispute over sovereignty in the South and East China Seas is between countries in the region and does not threaten USA, except their status as the world hegemon and ruler of the seas.

BTW; China sees Taiwan as a part of China, not as a sovereign state. (I.e. a claim by Taiwan is a claim by China) USA and all UN member states accept the “One China” status.

Gaddafi and Libya in the 1980s are not anywhere comparable to China today, but I presume the US has to claim whatever victories they can (Granada, Panama ??) to justify the expenditure on their armed forces with taxpayers money.

Are you assuming that China (or Russia) will send their fleet to meet with an approaching US fleet in the classical WWII sea battle?

They will actually fire a barrage of long range ship killing missiles from the safety of their homeland, before your carriers get anywhere near their coastline.
Or are you saying that your submarines will down missiles with their torpedoes?

“As long as they stayed on the right side of the 12nm territorial water limit, they would be legitimizing all of our patrols off of their coast.”

Are you saying that what you are doing now is illegal and you can’t very well find any way of claiming “deniability”, since the purpose is to be seen?
Well don’t worry, the Chinese are too smart and too cunning to give you any legal cover.

Let’s hope that there will not be any excuse for you to prove your superior war fighting ability, or the opposite. Level heads in China and other countries will hopefully not give you the opportunity to do so.


#4

USN has done another brave operation in the South China Sea:


I like this statement at the bottom of the article:

Apparently forgetting that USA has not ratified UNCLOS and thus have no right to invoke it.


#5

The International Court rejected China’a territorial claims in the South China Sea and ruled in favor of the Philippines.


#6

This sounds like something that Norwegian quisling with no balls, Jesper Berg, might say.


#7

Real life and movies are two different things and not to be confused with each other.
Why does Americans always come with; "just like in the movie … (Add your prefr.)?


#8

That right. Actually it was the Permanent Court of Arbitration at The Hague that ruled against the Chinese claim. Philippines backed down though.

Who has outlawed the communist regime in China?? Last I saw they were still the legitimate regime of a UN member state in good standing and permanent member of the Security Council.


#9

China is run by a communist regime, although it has adopted some capitalist features.

When China builds and expands military bases on artificial islands in Philippine waters after being ordered not to by an International court, they are outlaws.


#10

I’m quite impressed with Jo Nesbo’s work. It provides some insight into Norwegian culture and he’s a good read in English. He appears to be sort of a Norwegian version of Tom Clancy.

The plots of fiction books and movies often cut quite close to actual past and future events. One example, Tom Clancy wrote about a foreign terrorist (Japanese) using an airliner to attack government buildings in Washington, D.C. A few years later, Saudi terrorists used airliners to attack government buildings in New York and Washington, D.C.


#11

It is rather surprising that you are unaware of the fact that the US themselves has been ignoring international law as an every day practice from way way back and have even been called an ‘Outlaw Nation’. A typical case of the pot calling the kettle black.


#12

The first military activity on disputed reefs in the South China Sea was by the Philippines, when they grounded an old ex USN LST on Mischief Reef.

The first attempt to create an island out of a reef in the disputed area of the South China Sea to strengthen their claim was by Malaysia.


#13

China is run by a party that has Communist in its name, but there is no Communism in the way things are run today. (I.e. where each contribute to their ability and receive according to their need)

The system in place today is far from even Socialism, but closer to hard nosed Capitalism.
There are more Billionaires and Millionaires in China, both in real terms, in net worth and in per capita terms, than in USA.


#14

We Americans know that our government does plenty of things that are stupid, wasteful, wrong, immoral, or illegal, and we criticize our government endlessly. We Americans, after all, are constantly on the receiving end of most of our government’s illegal misdeeds.

There is an old adage: “Democracy is like sex. When it’s good, it’s really good, but when it’s bad, it’s still pretty good.” For all its faults, compared to most other countries, American government is still pretty good.”

When has America tried to annex foreign territory? Not in modern times. America has legally and peacefully resolved offshore border disputes with Mexico and Canada. Not too long ago, the International court ruled in favor of Canada and against the US to establish a maritime boundary on the East Coast, “The Hague Line” . The US accepted the court’s legal ruling and respects the result.

There are well accepted legal principles for determining maritime boundaries that predate UNCLOS. Every country, except China, Russia, North Korea, and a few others respects those legal principles and precedents.

China has ignored those legal principles and has gone hundreds of miles away from its own territory in to close proximity of neighboring countries, well within their EEZs, to build artificial islands and claim the territory of other nations by force. Then, China ignored a well founded and clear legal ruling for them to stop.

The US has never done anything like that, at least not in modern times.

Trying to justify Chinese lawlessness and territory and natural resources theft by saying that the US does it too, defies reality, and is unacceptable.


#15

WTF? There was no connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda. It was a Bush response to help protect the Saudis who owned his whole family. 9/11 and “weapons of mass destruction” were smokescreens for the butt hurt right wing and the defense industry,


#16

I though EVERYBODY had got the message that the Iraq War was not about 9/11.
Saddam Hussein was an enemy of Al Qaeda and a buffer against Iran taking control of Iraq.

UNCLOS set those principle into clear and unambiguous terms (although some want to dispute findings anyhow)
Since USA has not ratified UNCLOS they have little sayso in it’s implementation though.


#17

When has America tried to annex foreign territory?

You seem to have a rather short memory. What about Hawaii and Puerto Rico?


#18

As I said, invading Iraq was a huge mistake. That madman did not have the weapons of mass destruction that he claimed. Nor any real connection to Osama. Bush was an idiot.


#19

Actually, the legal principles and precedents for determining maritime boundaries are hundreds of years old. Much older than UNCLOS.

Personally, I’m in favor of ratifying UNCLOS.


#20

As I said, in MODERN TIMES. I’m not interested in debating what America did or didn’t do over 100 years ago. Or what the Japanese would have done if America hadn’t. Different times, different circumstances, different “Workd Order”, and a very different country from what the US is today.

The voters of Hawaii petitioned to become a state and that was ratified in 1959. Hawaii is a permanent US State. Anything else is bullshit.