Maritime Executive magazine plays t-ball with this one and still strikes out


#84

Not only to train and instruct prospective Masters, but to sponsor Maritime Schools and Academies in the Philippines and offer support to ensure that their academic and training standard is up to world standard:
https://www.ntcm.com.ph/

They also sponsor and follow up individual cadets and arrange places for them on Norwegian owned ships to obtain the necessary seatime. Most will go on to serve on Norwegian owned ships, many for their entire seagoing career.

NTC also run the best Simulator Centre in the Philippines.

They are part of the Norwegian Maritime Foundation of the Philippines:

OSM has their own Training Academy in Manila:


They are mostly attuned to the Offshore industry.


#85

Are those training subsidies and job opportunities available to Norwegian citizens at Norwegian pay scales so Norwegians can afford to live in Norway?

Or is the money saved by the shipowner by using cheap labor and the money made by selling a FoC flag great enough to pay all those expenses and still give owners and government a profit?

Like I wrote before, if the so called “second register” was not a substandard alternative to the national flag it would not, could not, exist because quite simply there would be no reason for it.


#86

OSV AHTS going from USD250/day Captain down to 3rd mates at USD50/day here in Asia
For boats at the dock they are buying their own food.
And nobody paying tax, oh unless they are American, so that puts them at a slight disadvantage.


#87

one, I worked for a US company and the particular drillship ultimately came to work on the OCS so the owner was mandated by law to employ US citizens on that rig per 33CFRpart141.

two, if you are in fact correct and a US seaman does not have access to US courts to sue for damages in the event he is injured in the service of a foreign flagged ship outside US waters then why are US seafarers not afforded opportunities to sail on foreign ships anywhere? seriously, tell me where Americans are in fact recruited and hired and who is hiring them? if this is not the case as I contend, then please tell me why you feel these US mariners are not sought now now have ever been? are we just loathed because we are American?

once there was lots of talk of placing American maritime trainees on foreign flagged LNG ships to increase opportunities for US mariners in that sector of the industry. did that ever turn into anything? I don’t believe it did. can anyone tell me if there are US maritime cadets on foreign LNGs?


#88

It is not that the Americans are loathed, only that no one wants to get snared into the US legal system


#89

which is exactly what I have been saying


#90

You and many others here appears to lack an understanding of how things work in the world of shipping outside USA.

Let me start by explaining how it works in Norway. (Other European countries are much the same)

Shipping Companies doesn’t pay taxes per se in Norway and most other European countries:

The grievance by Norwegian Shipowners, is about the Wealth Tax paid by the individual share holders in the mostly family owned companies. To pay this tax high dividend has to be paid out, thus tapping the company for money to invest, or to cover daily operating expenses. Foreign companies with ships under either of the Norwegian resgisters does not pay this.

The tonnage tax from registering ships under either the National or 2nd register is miniscule and does not amount to a major income for the Government:
https://www.sjofartsdir.no/en/shipping/registration-of-commercial-vessels-in-nisnor/new-registration-nis/norwegian-tonnage-tax-regime/

Norwegian Owners may find it more advantageous to register under other quality flags, such as Isle of Man, Gibraltar, Bahamas, Singapore etc. but you find few Norwegian owned, Offshore vessels especially, under Panama, Liberia and other even less “respected” flags, such as Vanuatu. (Marshall Island is becoming more “respectable” due to it’s US affiliation)

The reason for foreign company to register under Norwegian flag is that it is seen and known as a quality flag and not a FoC. The demands put on them discourage the “fly-by-night” operators, but have advantages towards charterers and underwriters.

The reason why the Government encourage Norwegian and foreign Owners to register under NOR or NIS flag is that Shipping is and have always been a major tax base for Norway. It helps to keep shorebased shipping jobs in Norway, not all moving to Singapore, or US.
It also help to secure that there will be some positions left for Norwegian seafarers to fill, to ensure that there will always be people with maritime background to fill those shore jobs in Shipping.

Now to the main question of why Norwegian Shipowners support Filipinos to become competent Master, Officer and Engineers. It is obviously to secure adequate qualified crews to man their ships under whatever flags. At the same time it ensure that Norway will remain a major shipping nation, with worldwide operation.

Does this take money away from Norwegians who wants to take a Maritime Education?
No, not at all. The Norwegian Government does not sponsor this effort in any monetary way.
Education in Norway is free, incl. for foreign students. Grants and cheap loans to cover living expenses are available through Government systems.
Most if not all additional courses are either free, or paid for by the employers ones they have a job.
It may sound like utopia to you, but it is a reality here.

It may also be hard to believe that not all Shipowners are heartless, money grubbing fat cats with no social conscience, but there DO exist some that is actually and genuinely concerned for the welfare and safety of the seafarers and others that work for them. Unbelievable isn’t it??

To assume that ships under 2nd registers, or even FoC flags are all substandard is plain wrong and is not held up by any statistics or reality check. That there are some FoCs that allow such ships are true, but it is a small minority and not the norm, as many here would like to believe.
Don’t believe me?? Well go look for yourself, or talk to somebody that actually deal with such ships.


#91

Some years ago, I knew several Americans sailing on U.K. and other foreign flag tankers. I know Americans who are working for Seadrill, Ensco, and BP right now on foreign flag vessels overseas. I know Americans sailing right now on foreign flag yachts. I know several Americans who have sailed on foreign flag tugs. I’m sure we both know a number of Americans sailing on foreign flag OSVs in Africa, Far East, South America, and even the U.K.

It is my understanding that some P&I Clubs place limits on the number of Americans their members are allowed to hire, due to an unfounded fear of personal injury lawsuits. I also understand that some foreign employers have an unfounded fear of American seamen’s injury lawsuits.

A bigger real problem is that due to stupid US tax and financial laws, like FACTA, Americans have great difficulty opening foreign bank accounts to which employers can make direct deposits. Many foreign companies are also afraid of becoming entangled in US tax and financial reporting requirements. That is not a myth’ it is real problem, but it can be overcome.

There are a lot of myths about the US legal system and excessive seafarer’s rights. As we have recently seen from the TAL fiasco, American seafarers do not have many enforceable rights. As we have recently discussed, although recruiters are prohibited from charging seamen a fee for a job under the MLC and US law, so far, US Courts have let them get away with it. Those same courts pointed out that the outmoded doctrine of seamen as the “wards of admiralty” is not quite dead, but nearly so.

Show of hands: How many of us think American federal court juries award ridiculous amounts of money for minor injuries in Jones Act seaman’s injury cases?


#92

This whole thing sounds like some kind of colonialism. Guess it only benefits Norwegian ship owners/operators though, not the Norwegian people.


#93

Read my post #89 above


#94

Sure a few US mariners working on foreign flag but generally they are US owned vessels.
If you talk to the crewing guys in the office US mariners are just too hard to employ, no fault of their own but for all the other reasons created by USCG/GOV/IRS etc as mentioned above.
So I would say they have very limited opportunities outside the USA compared with everyone else.
Saying that lots of Americans getting Singapore passports I notice,
Must be to free themselves from the land of the free, isnt that ironic?


#95

But NOT due to the Jones Act?


#96

No, nobody over here even knows what it is.
Like shipping, your contract might say all disputes to be settled under English Law


#97

I continue to disagree…maybe a US mariner would have a steep hill to climb if he was injured on a ship which never entered US waters but he certainly is protected by the Jones Act if he is serving a ship which does call in the US even if his injury occurs in international waters or the waters of another nation. Once his ship is in reach of the US Marshals it can be attached and that is something no shipowner is willing to risk especially when the seaman is a ward of the Court who’s claim is considered bone fide by the legal system. Again, I have been told this by Holland America Line without apology on their part. They have no requirement to hire a US national so why would they ever consider opening themselves up to the liability especially when they have such deep pockets lawyers would just love to stick their hands into. Furthermore, there is nothing a company can do to insulate themselves from that liability with having the seaman sign an agreement saying all suits would be heard in another nation under that nation’s laws. The Jones Act protections cannot be waived away and these foreign shipowners all know this because their underwriters make sure they know.

I still hold and will continue to hold that the single biggest reason you find so very few US mariners on foreign ships is because of the Jones Act and the blanket protections it provides US citizen mariners. Mind you I don’t like this and feel mariners like myself are the losers but it is what it is, we are stuck with the result.


#98

Thats why all ships are held under separate companies, you cant grab it as its a separate entity, even if wholly owned subsidiary. Nothing to do with the company that employs you.
Holland America probably owns some office furniture in the US though.


#99

C.captain. I think you really ought to have a chat with an expert about the scope of jurisdiction and territorial reach of the Jones Act. There is a professor at UW School of Law who is such an expert. He’s also a very interesting guy, the former CO of a large Coast Guard cutter in Alaska. He recently wrote an updated edition of Farwell’s Rules of the Road. You may already know him. I don’t want to blurt out his name here, but you can find out easy enough. Why don’t you give him a call and offer to take him out for a nice lunch. You are an exceptionally knowledgeable mariner with a knack for correctly analyzing most maritime issues. You really need a legal expert to help you get your head on straight about the Jones Act.


#100

Do US mariners need the Jones act as the dodgy Gov wont sign up to MLC 2006 like the rest of the world has?


#101

we are obviously going to disagree about this yet I do appreciate your kind words about the veracity of the commentary I am proud to provide here. I seek to educate my fellow mariners as to what are the underlying causes of all that ails our very ill industry. Not that I feel I can cure any of those ills but if my fellows know the truth behind the sickness then maybe perhaps something worthwhile can come of my words.


#102

Why don’t you have a chat with your knowledgeable friend and answer C.captain here on this forum?
My understanding is that what C.captain is saying is generally right.


#103

Look guys you’re overanalyzing this whole thing. The only reason we don’t get hired for foreign vessels is because we aren’t as smart as the Norwegians. We need to give Puerto Rico to the Catalans and concentrate on annexing Norway.