Lifeboat As Rescue Platform?


#61

This is from Operating Lifeboats by Capt Gibson - it on the internets

The risks associated with launching, running, and recovering a modern ship’s lifeboat are well documented. Although the design and manufacture of the lifeboat and its ancillary equipment has evolved to meet the minimum requirements of international conventions, many mariners have been killed or injured in accidents during the operation of these lifesaving appliances,

His point that he makes in the article is the reason mariners know how poorly suited conventional ship’s lifeboats are is not because we know how many mariners have killed or injured but from observation during drill how poorly they are designed and how poorly they function.

more from the same artilce

It is probable that few bureaucrats, even those involved in the development of regulations applicable to lifeboat safety, have ever descended a ship’s side at night n a near gale, totally dependent on the ability of the boat’s crew to release the hooks at just the appropriate moment. It i open to debate whether the designers of modern lifeboat equipment understand what a bowman experiences while trying to grasp a swinging steel block from the small hatch of a pitching boat. In either case, untimely concerns about the status of the on-load release gear may cause a dangerous distraction at a critical moment.


#62

[QUOTE=yacht_sailor;130921]A sailboat carries a dinghy in davits (sometimes). They launch the dinghy ALL THE TIME and use it ALL THE TIME. It is likely to actually be a quite capable little vessel. In skilled hands a 12-14 foot RIB with 25 HP can do a lot.
So…they see a ship go by with a boat or two being carried that is far bigger than their dinghy. They may assume the ship sometimes anchors out and launches their boats and use them routinely and that they are even better than a RIB. They are off course far wrong. Also note they would never launch a dinghy off davits in any kind of sea and even carrying a boat that way is dangerous in big waves. So the impression “this would be easy” is kina-sorta understandable for the less experienced but still very wrong. They have also never watched anyone try and get a dinghy back on davits in any kind of swell. It is a real good way to get your head bashed in or worse.[/QUOTE]

We are going off track a bit but that’s right. It’s about the skill available compared to how difficult and or dangerous the task is. On a sail boat the most skilled person is going to perform a relatively simple task, putting a dingy in the water. An experienced person is going to be able to judge the risk.

Most captains on big ships are aware that that type of lifeboat has killed people while being used in port. It is a task that is difficult to do safely and it is going to be launched, not by the captain but by the ABs with a mate in charge. How much confidence the captain has in the crew is unknown.


#63

46 U.S. CODE § 2303 - DUTIES RELATED TO MARINE CASUALTY ASSISTANCE AND INFORMATION

(a)The master or individual in charge of a vessel involved in a marine casualty shall:
(1) render necessary assistance to each individual affected to save that affected individual from danger caused by the marine casualty, [U]so far as the master or individual in charge can do so without serious danger to the master’s or individual’s vessel or to individuals on board;[/U] and
(2) give the master’s or individual’s name and address and identification of the vessel to the master or individual in charge of any other vessel involved in the casualty, to any individual injured, and to the owner of any property damaged.
(b) An individual violating this section or a regulation prescribed under this section shall be fined not more than $1,000 or imprisoned for not more than 2 years. The vessel also is liable in rem to the United States Government for the fine.
© An individual complying with subsection (a) of this section or gratuitously and in good faith rendering assistance at the scene of a marine casualty without objection by an individual assisted, [U]is not liable for damages [/U]as a result of rendering assistance or for an act or omission in providing or arranging salvage, towage, medical treatment, or other assistance [U]when the individual acts as an ordinary, reasonable, and prudent individual would have acted under the circumstances.[/U]

Ordinary, Reasonable and Prudent:

  • Of no exceptional ability, degree or quality,
  • Within the expected human condition or situation,
  • Governed by or being in accordance with reason or sound thinking,
  • Conforming with established standards or rules being within reasonable or average limits,
  • Not excessive nor extreme,
  • Being and exercising inside the bounds of common sense, reason and good judgment,
  • Having modest or moderate expectations; not making excessive demands,
  • Practical and careful in providing,
  • Exercising caution or showing care and attention.

We don’t have to be heroes here …

p.s. [I]“Which lifeboats kill most seafarers? It is a commercial secret that you must not ask. Your life is at risk because your life is less important than the lifeboat manufacturer’s.”[/I]

http://gcaptain.com/lashingsea-and-containers-a-disappointment/


#64

I just finished reading “Freighter Captain” http://www.amazon.com/Freighter-Captain-Max-Hardberger-ebook/dp/B004RVNHYE/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1392740697&sr=1-1&keywords=freighter+captain and in that book Cap. Hardberger decides not to rescue some Jamaican fisherman that were drifting on a disabled vessel. His theory was “Every rastaman for himself” because picking them up would entail port charges to drop them off or imigration hassles to bring them along. So apparently, at least back in the day, some skippers decided it was easier to just “not see” a vessel in distresss.


#65

Well, you can find assholes in every era.


#66

Grappling the line to the sea anchor sounds like a good plan. The plan to snag the line with the ship was not. In may be that an incorrect assumption was made about how the boat / anchor would act.

I wonder if the plan was discussed between the ship and boat? In hindsight the boat crew should have been standing by to let the sea anchor go when it became apparent they were being drawn into a collision.

The takeaway for the crew being rescued is make sure you understand the plan and don’t assume the ship’s plan is a good one,


#67

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;131146]Grappling the line to the sea anchor sounds like a good plan. The plan to snag the line with the ship was not. In may be that an incorrect assumption was made about how the boat / anchor would act.

I wonder if the plan was discussed between the ship and boat? In hindsight the boat crew should have been standing by to let the sea anchor go when it became apparent they were being drawn into a collision.

The takeaway for the crew being rescued is make sure you understand the plan and don’t assume the ship’s plan is a good one,[/QUOTE]

It appears to me that the drag of the drogue was more effective than anyone realized. (on either vessel) Thinking as if the yacht was moored to a mooring ball, no one would attempt to ‘cut between’. But it appears the ship bisecting the painter was a terrible idea. No one (even now, by the owners comments) seems to accept that the sea anchor was the cause of the problems, not the lack of lifeboat use.

The ultimate rescue sort of negated the whole topic in my mind. The Kim Jacob was trying to lend assistance, And the Yachters needed to get removed from the boat. Job 1, accomplished. It may not have been pretty, but it worked.


#68

[QUOTE=cappy208;131149]It appears to me that the drag of the drogue was more effective than anyone realized. (on either vessel) Thinking as if the yacht was moored to a mooring ball, no one would attempt to ‘cut between’. But it appears the ship bisecting the painter was a terrible idea. No one (even now, by the owners comments) seems to accept that the sea anchor was the cause of the problems, not the lack of lifeboat use.

The ultimate rescue sort of negated the whole topic in my mind. The Kim Jacob was trying to lend assistance, And the Yachters needed to get removed from the boat. Job 1, accomplished. It may not have been pretty, but it worked.[/QUOTE]

I agree that lifeboats are not the issue here.

But, a couple of years ago it occurred to me that the phrase “learning things the hard way” implied that there was an easy way (or at least easier way) to learn things. I have since learned that this is the idea behind the concept of “lessons learned”. After an incident a mariner can either say, “oh well, shit happens” or think about what went wrong.

Many mariners see this as just Monday morning quarterbacking or a game to prove that they are better mariners with their keyboards then the crew involved are when they are at sea but I think valuable lessons can be learned, “going forward” as the office likes to say.


#69

What it looks like to me from the safety of my computer is that you have 2 skippers doing a very complicated and dangerous operation and each one is not very well informed of how the other one operates or what they can do. I could have told you that a sea anchor as commonly used by sailboats is a HUGE amount of drag and would surely win a tug-of-war with the boat if you run into the line between the two. OTOH I don’t know shit about tanker steering in heavy weather or any other kind of weather.


#70

[QUOTE=yacht_sailor;131154]What it looks like to me from the safety of my computer is that you have 2 skippers doing a very complicated and dangerous operation and each one is not very well informed of how the other one operates or what they can do. I could have told you that a sea anchor as commonly used by sailboats is a HUGE amount of drag and would surely win a tug-of-war with the boat if you run into the line between the two. OTOH I don’t know shit about tanker steering in heavy weather or any other kind of weather.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. The tanker captain was in better position judge how the tanker could be handled then us or the yachtsman. But the yachtsman likely had a better understanding of how the sea anchor might behave even if it was only intuitively. A discussion between the two may have caused the tacit knowledge of yachtsman to surface.


#71

[QUOTE=yacht_sailor;130979]I just finished reading “Freighter Captain” http://www.amazon.com/Freighter-Captain-Max-Hardberger-ebook/dp/B004RVNHYE/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1392740697&sr=1-1&keywords=freighter+captain and in that book Cap. Hardberger decides not to rescue some Jamaican fisherman that were drifting on a disabled vessel. His theory was “Every rastaman for himself” because picking them up would entail port charges to drop them off or imigration hassles to bring them along. So apparently, at least back in the day, some skippers decided it was easier to just “not see” a vessel in distresss.[/QUOTE]

Hope that asshole one day is the one that’s “not spotted” at sea.
Rescue at sea is not something you choose to do it’s your duty as a professional mariner.


#72

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;131152]
Many mariners see this as just Monday morning quarterbacking or a game to prove that they are better mariners with their keyboards then the crew involved are when they are at sea but I think valuable lessons can be learned, “going forward” as the office likes to say.[/QUOTE]

True. However, the lessons learned are only going to the recipients here on G Captain who are taking the time to read, and not shut down all input. I HIGHLY doubt the office (any Office) will submit this to the monthly lessons learned file to be distributed throughout the fleet.


#73

[QUOTE=Kraken;131158]Hope that asshole one day is the one that’s “not spotted” at sea.
Rescue at sea is not something you choose to do it’s your duty as a professional mariner.[/QUOTE]

UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF THE SEA

Article98, Duty to render assistance

  1. Every State shall require the master of a ship flying its flag, in so far as he can do so without serious danger to the ship, the crew or the passengers:
    (a) to render assistance to any person found at sea in danger of being lost;
    (b) to proceed with all possible speed to the rescue of persons in distress,[U] if informed of their need of assistance[/U], in so far as such action may reasonably be expected of him;
    © after a collision, to render assistance to the other ship, its crew and its passengers and, where possible, to inform the other ship of the name of his own ship, its port of registry and the nearest port at which it will call.
  2. Every coastal State shall promote the establishment, operation and maintenance of an adequate and effective search and rescue service regarding safety on and over the sea and, where circumstances so require, by way of mutual regional arrangements cooperate with neighbouring States for this purpose.

Informed:

Possessing, displaying or based on reliable information,
To supply with knowledge, pertinent facts or circumstance of a matter or subject,
To give evident substance, character or distinction to,
Having or showing knowledge of a subject or situation.

Below is the list of the world’s most pirate-infested waters, based on attacks in the last five quarters (roughly 1 year and 3 months):

  1. Indonesia (43 Attacks)
  2. Somalia (31 Attacks)
  3. Nigeria (22 Attacks)
  4. Gulf of Aden (10 Attacks)
  5. India (7 Attacks)
  6. Red Sea (7 Attacks)
  7. Bangladesh (7 Attacks)
  8. Ivory Coast (6 Attacks)
  9. Peru (4 Attacks)
  10. Singapore Straits (4 Attacks)
    … coast line of Columbia, Venezuela, etc.

So, do you still playing heroes and save all drifting fisherman that solely wave hands, without being officially “informed” of a distress or overdue occurrence ? Good luck !


#74

[QUOTE=Topsail;131174]UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF THE SEA

Article98, Duty to render assistance

  1. Every State shall require the master of a ship flying its flag, in so far as he can do so without serious danger to the ship, the crew or the passengers:
    (a) to render assistance to any person found at sea in danger of being lost;
    (b) to proceed with all possible speed to the rescue of persons in distress,[U] if informed of their need of assistance[/U], in so far as such action may reasonably be expected of him;
    © after a collision, to render assistance to the other ship, its crew and its passengers and, where possible, to inform the other ship of the name of his own ship, its port of registry and the nearest port at which it will call.
  2. Every coastal State shall promote the establishment, operation and maintenance of an adequate and effective search and rescue service regarding safety on and over the sea and, where circumstances so require, by way of mutual regional arrangements cooperate with neighbouring States for this purpose.

Informed:

Possessing, displaying or based on reliable information,
To supply with knowledge, pertinent facts or circumstance of a matter or subject,
To give evident substance, character or distinction to,
Having or showing knowledge of a subject or situation.

Below is the list of the world’s most pirate-infested waters, based on attacks in the last five quarters (roughly 1 year and 3 months):

  1. Indonesia (43 Attacks)
  2. Somalia (31 Attacks)
  3. Nigeria (22 Attacks)
  4. Gulf of Aden (10 Attacks)
  5. India (7 Attacks)
  6. Red Sea (7 Attacks)
  7. Bangladesh (7 Attacks)
  8. Ivory Coast (6 Attacks)
  9. Peru (4 Attacks)
  10. Singapore Straits (4 Attacks)
    … coast line of Columbia, Venezuela, etc.

So, do you still playing heroes and save all drifting fisherman that solely wave hands, without being officially “informed” of a distress or overdue occurrence ? Good luck ![/QUOTE]

Do you need a official call to render assistance to persons in distress? Because they could be pirates? If you choose to ignore the drifting waving fishermen, you are violating the rules you quoted.


#75

[QUOTE=Kraken;131187]Do you need a official call to render assistance to persons in distress? Because they could be pirates? If you choose to ignore the drifting waving fishermen, you are violating the rules you quoted.[/QUOTE]

You don’t have to ignore them, if they are not in immediate danger you pass the position to the authorities.


#76

Don’t go too far offshore if you don’t carry and EPIRB … you could drift for months and wave hands to numerous vessels that will go by !!!


#77

[QUOTE=Topsail;131203]Don’t go too far offshore if you don’t carry and EPIRB … you could drift for months and wave hands to numerous vessels that will go by !!![/QUOTE]

I will not argue your point, but it certainly demonstrates just how miserable standards the modern mariner have.


#78

What about that standard ?

Rule 5: Look-out

[U]Every[/U] [U]vessel[/U] [U]shall[/U] [U]at all times[/U] [U]maintain a proper look-out [/U]by [U]sight[/U] and [U]hearing[/U] as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.

same … :wink:


#79

We’re getting kind of strung out here: #1. You have to rescue them and naturally you’re going to use equipment that impacts your operation the least. #2. you have to rescue them. — As for running a tanker at reduced speed to tow a boat… shouldn’t happen… tankers would rather buy a couple boats or rafts than be too late into port. , lasso him and drag’em aboard.


#80

[QUOTE=jimrr;131215]We’re getting kind of strung out here: #1. You have to rescue them and naturally you’re going to use equipment that impacts your operation the least. #2. you have to rescue them. — As for running a tanker at reduced speed to tow a boat… shouldn’t happen… tankers would rather buy a couple boats or rafts than be too late into port. , lasso him and drag’em aboard.[/QUOTE]

This is a great summation. Very simple and to the point. Thanks Jim.