Future of ships

[QUOTE=Lee Shore;190859]Dude…what are you smoking? Airliners have triple back ups and can fly on their own with zero maintenance even possible underway but are still managed by flight crews.[/QUOTE]

I quit smoking years ago. It is not as difficult as it is made out to be, but it take “will-not power” (I.e. I WILL NOT LIGHT UP THAT CIGARETTE)

Why don’t plane fly themselves, although they already have the systems available to do so? Probably because there are rules and regulations in place to stop it from happening YET. Besides, would passengers accept a pilot free cockpit, although is it presumed to be safer? (No suicidal Pilots, for one and no Pilot errors)

Likewise with Cruise ships, as mention here earlier. You could not have an autonomous Cruise ship, if for nothing else; who would host the Captain’s Dinner, and how do you get the privileged seat at the Captain’s Table, if there are no Captain?

This could, as suggested, be solved by having an actor playing the role of Captain.(I believe we have seen one in action. Unfortunatelly he was also able to give orders)

You could still have an Automated ship, with a Deck and Engine staff parading around in their nice white uniforms to make the “guests” feel safe. (Maybe they could be actors too?)

As far as the hotel part is concerned, there is already an automated Bartender on a Cruise ship, but to go to the extent of having frozen TV dinners, microwave ovens and self-service may not work too good. (PS> That “Bartender” is said to mix a mean Martini)

[QUOTE=ombugge;190875]I quit smoking years ago. It is not as difficult as it is made out to be, but it take “will-not power” (I.e. I WILL NOT LIGHT UP THAT CIGARETTE)

Why don’t plane fly themselves, although they already have the systems available to do so? Probably because there are rules and regulations in place to stop it from happening YET. Besides, would passengers accept a pilot free cockpit, although is it presumed to be safer? (No suicidal Pilots, for one and no Pilot errors)

Likewise with Cruise ships, as mention here earlier. You could not have an autonomous Cruise ship, if for nothing else; who would host the Captain’s Dinner, and how do you get the privileged seat at the Captain’s Table, if there are no Captain?

This could, as suggested, be solved by having an actor playing the role of Captain.(I believe we have seen one in action. Unfortunatelly he was also able to give orders)

You could still have an Automated ship, with a Deck and Engine staff parading around in their nice white uniforms to make the “guests” feel safe. (Maybe they could be actors too?)

As far as the hotel part is concerned, there is already an automated Bartender on a Cruise ship, but to go to the extent of having frozen TV dinners, microwave ovens and self-service may not work too good. (PS> That “Bartender” is said to mix a mean Martini)[/QUOTE]

re: smoking
If the doctor gives me a month to live, I may start up again.

[U]Why don’t planes fly themselves? [/U]
They do. The pilots enter data and monitor the systems. They are extensively trained to fly the plane manually but rarely do so because the computers do a better job.

[U]Would passengers accept a pilot free cockpit?[/U]
The answer is no. They have already voted.

[U](No suicidal pilots , for one and no Pilot errors)[/U]
That’s wishful thinking. The programmers and data entry people are human. As long as there is a human link in the chain there will be errors and potential sabotage. In fact, it could easily make things worse. it will require much less commitment and effort on the part of an individual to send a plane on a death dive if he has the disconnect of watching it happen on a screen.

We have much more important issues to focus on than putting aircraft and ship crews out of work.

My comment about cruise ships was tacked on at the end of my post to provide comic relief while expressing my dislike for floating resorts registered in the Bahamas who sail on the backs of indentured workers from third world countries begging for tips from US vacationers because they are sending their minuscule salaries home to support their extended families. The ships are massive vacuum cleaners sucking US dollars and funneling them to offshore tax havens. But you know all this and it is perfectly legal but still pisses me off.

Pilots extensively trained to fly manually?
You need to have a beer with a sim operator to find out modern pilots have zero manual flying skills.

[QUOTE=c.captain;181751]I just want to say that I absolutely LOATHE THIS SHIT!

glad I will be long gone before this ever becomes common[/QUOTE]
How do you know your plane is not like this now and the guys up front just make announcements?

[QUOTE=powerabout;190892]Pilots extensively trained to fly manually?
You need to have a beer with a sim operator to find out modern pilots have zero manual flying skills.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think so. I know a little bit about pilot training being the proud holder of an ATP certificate (Airline Transport Pilot rating) with over 2000 hrs PIC.

What are you basing your statement on?

[QUOTE=Lee Shore;190850]All this talk reminds me of 1950’s Popular Mechanics articles demonstrating how we would all be buzzing around in flying cars by the year 2000. The charade gets revived every 15 years or so when an inventor jump starts it with a new “air car”, then the story fades away before the next big news cycle.
[/QUOTE]
FAA Gives Flying Car Prototype the Go-Ahead as a Light Sport Aircraft

Despite all the pessimists and naysayers here on the forum, work is progressing to make autonomous ships (and flying cars) a reality.
They don’t think that because it hasn’t been done before it can’t be done: http://www.smp.no/naeringsliv/2016/09/30/Åpnet-testområde-for-førerløse-skip-13573118.ece?cx_front_click=baseline_test&cx_front_click_place=7&cx_front_click_articles=1
Sorry, in Norwegian only. Translation required.

Yes this is testing the collision avoidance system and shore based monitoring in close proximity to shore and in small scale, not the endurance of unmanned engine room for an autonomous cross Pacific passage. That is being done at the same time by others.

Why would you need Engineers to clean Self-cleaning Separators anyhow?: http://www.alfalaval.com/products/separation/centrifugal-separators/separators/s-and-p-flex/

[QUOTE=ombugge;190959]
Why would you need Engineers to clean Self-cleaning Separators anyhow?: http://gcaptain.com/forum/professional-mariner-forum/professional-mariner-forum/www.alfalaval.com/globalassets/documents/industries/machinery-and.../gt-50.pdf[/QUOTE]

Without engineers your ship will work as well as this link does. For me it says page can not be found. What was the gist of the point you were trying to make?

[QUOTE=KPChief;190960]Without engineers your ship will work as well as this link does. For me it says page can not be found. What was the gist of the point you were trying to make?[/QUOTE]

And self cleaning filters, self fixing leaks, self cleaning turbo chargers…

Not to mention I find it charming that some people think all of a ships maintenance could be done in an average port stay

[QUOTE=KPChief;190960]Without engineers your ship will work as well as this link does. For me it says page can not be found. What was the gist of the point you were trying to make?[/QUOTE]

New link inserted.

Point I tried to make?
Somebody mentioned “cleaning separators” as a reason to require Engineers onboard.
Apparently they can clean themselves for a while.

I repeat again. IT IS NOT INTENDED TO TAKE AN OLD SHIP AND MAKE IT AUTONOMOUS.
Give the many people that work on this project some credit. They are neighter ignorant of how ships and machinery work, nor some village idiots that dream up things that is impossible.

It is serious companies and highly competent people involved who will make this happen a lot sooner than you think.
It will start with small vessels, probably ferries in inshore traffic, but within relatively few years it will extent to short sea trade and eventually to world wide trade.

How long before the first autonomous ship is seen in an American port will depend as much on the inertia in US shipping and Maritime Authorities as on available tried and tested technology.

The US Navy is working on it: http://www.theverge.com/2016/4/8/11391840/us-navy-autonomous-ship-sea-hunter-christened
But will it spread to the Merchant fleet anytime soon? Probably not as long as the present mindset and lacks safety standards are allowing old obsolete ships to sail under US flag.

American Shipper is paying a little attention to what is happening in Europe on this front: http://www.americanshipper.com/main/news/aawa-lays-out-vision-for-autonomous-shipping-64477.aspx#hide
But they do not fund anything, or have any influence on those who do.

[B][U]Lets first try to fix this forum functionality[/U][/B] - so you dont have to refresh with every damn post, or page change that has been made. This has been going on now for the last 2 months?? Then get back to working on the ships that do not need a crew? LOL. Currently the US Navy, and Royal Navy cant even design a ship that works without problems with a crew onboard.

[QUOTE=ombugge;190963]New link inserted.
Point I tried to make?
Somebody mentioned “cleaning separators” as a reason to require Engineers onboard.
Apparently they can clean themselves for a while.[/QUOTE]

That’s the trouble with words, they mean different things to different people. This purifier concept is what? 40 years old already? Just had to clean one. Don’t get me wrong this design was a game changer, but partial sludge ejection is not same thing as cleaning. They have even done work on dewatering the sludge, drying and compacting the solids for disposal ashore. More features more money. Some would find it worth the cost to reduce the sludge handling liabilities aboard. But you would still have to clean the purifier and change the o-rings and bowl sealing ring and valve plugs, etc. now presumably this would be work accomplished during the port stays in your scenario. But as was pointed out above, the answer to every maintenance issue with “it will be done in port” is also unrealistic with labor costs, time constraints and simultaneous work issues.

I would say most engineers are practical people who also are “not ignorant of how ships and machinery work”. They have no problem allowing for the possibility of a transoceanic autonomous vessel of commercial dimensions but they also see the many, many details required to pull it off. You seem to take any technical points of concern as unfounded criticism of your rosy and inevitable picture of the future. You are starting to come off as Darth Bugge…“all you engineers, I find your lack of faith disturbing”. What would make you happy? That we all agree it is inevitable? OK Nostradamus, I agree. Let’s move on.

Most of our ferries have most of their work done in port. That’s because they are in port every night, all night. There’s a full shift’s worth of work, done by a full crew’s worth of engineers, every single day. I am therefore not impressed by an “autonomous” ferry that spends each and every night in her berth.

[QUOTE=Emrobu;190969]Most of our ferries have most of their work done in port. That’s because they are in port every night, all night. There’s a full shift’s worth of work, done by a full crew’s worth of engineers, every single day. I am therefore not impressed by an “autonomous” ferry that spends each and every night in her berth.[/QUOTE]

Here is one candidate that could be set up for autonomous ferry operation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6Lp-qV9ZJU
Norway is building more of these.

The first one will likely be in Finland, maybe already next year, however.

[QUOTE=KPChief;190968]That’s the trouble with words, they mean different things to different people. This purifier concept is what? 40 years old already? Just had to clean one. Don’t get me wrong this design was a game changer, but partial sludge ejection is not same thing as cleaning. They have even done work on dewatering the sludge, drying and compacting the solids for disposal ashore. More features more money. Some would find it worth the cost to reduce the sludge handling liabilities aboard. But you would still have to clean the purifier and change the o-rings and bowl sealing ring and valve plugs, etc. now presumably this would be work accomplished during the port stays in your scenario. But as was pointed out above, the answer to every maintenance issue with “it will be done in port” is also unrealistic with labor costs, time constraints and simultaneous work issues.

I would say most engineers are practical people who also are “not ignorant of how ships and machinery work”. They have no problem allowing for the possibility of a transoceanic autonomous vessel of commercial dimensions but they also see the many, many details required to pull it off. You seem to take any technical points of concern as unfounded criticism of your rosy and inevitable picture of the future. You are starting to come off as Darth Bugge…“all you engineers, I find your lack of faith disturbing”. What would make you happy? That we all agree it is inevitable? OK Nostradamus, I agree. Let’s move on.[/QUOTE]

Yes even self-cleaning separators need repairs, or even “deep cleaning” ones in a while, but would they be able to run unattended for say 20-30 days when in god state of repair at the start?

No I don’t find it disturbing, or even surprising, that Engineers are skeptical to anything that may change their role from seagoing to shore based. In fact I would be more surprised if they were not.

The deck officers are just as skeptical to the though that ships can sail themselves across oceans and especially in/out of ports and maneuvering alongside berths.
Just look at the video of the ferry “Ampere” and you can see the contours of the future. Would it be possible to replace that pretty Chief Mate with a computer at the control. Absolutely, but it need to be proven over time first, before she move ashore to do her job.

[QUOTE=ombugge;190978]Yes even self-cleaning separators need repairs, or even “deep cleaning” ones in a while, but would they be able to run unattended for say 20-30 days when in god state of repair at the start?

The deck officers are just as skeptical to the though that ships can sail themselves across oceans and especially in/out of ports and maneuvering alongside berths.
[/QUOTE]

OK, let’s pretend that Norwegian engineers blessed with superior intelligence, skill and good looks have enabled the FS Onbugge to sail from Oslo to the Houston Ship Channel sea buoy without a soul on board. The formally bothersome self-cleaning separators are spotless. The ship is on its way to pick up some liquid cargo at a refinery in Galena Park. What happens next?

[QUOTE=Lee Shore;190980]What happens next?[/QUOTE]
The barristers are all waiting with bated breath…

[QUOTE=Lee Shore;190980]OK, let’s pretend that Norwegian engineers blessed with superior intelligence, skill and good looks have enabled the FS Onbugge to sail from Oslo to the Houston Ship Channel sea buoy without a soul on board. The formally bothersome self-cleaning separators are spotless. The ship is on its way to pick up some liquid cargo at a refinery in Galena Park. What happens next?[/QUOTE]

Yes indeed, what is happening next?

To a degree that will depend on whether this is first call of an autonomous ship in Houston, or even in the US.
If it is, there will probably be a fleet of small boats filled with protester waiting, claiming that this foreign contraption should be banned from entering US waters.

Why? Because it is not an American vessel and therefore must be inferior and dangerous. Could there be a bomb onboard, or maybe the ship is carrying illegal immigrants from Norway looking for a better life in America?

Other, more level headed people, will want to know WHY it is not an American ship and who’s to blame for the US not being in the forefront of Marine Technology.

If we are looking at what will happen when these ships are common and arrival at any port is routine, the answer may be like this;

At an agreed point some distance from the sea buoy, monitoring and control of the ship is taken over by local VTS, or by the Pilot Authority’s Control Centre.

The ship continues autonomously,but supervised by ONE dedicated person, still unmanned and unaided by tugs to the berthing location, where a Pilot on the wharf may supervise the berthing operation visually,or may even take charge by portable remote joy stick and control panel.

Once alongside the required number of pneumatic mooring arms connect themselves to the hull.
A side door opens and a gangway is deployed, all by remote control.

The “shore gang” now have safe access to the vessel to perform whatever repairs and maintenance required.

Since there are no crew, no need for Quarantine, Immigration or Customs to board and no worries about crew jumping ship etc.

is this possible with today’s technology, or an idiotic pipe dream by some dumb Norwegians, Finns, Germans, Dutch and even some Swiss from some of the largest and most advanced European Companies and Universities??

Who knows? Maybe it is all a hoax to get Government grants, or to tricking Americans into believing that it is possible for foreigners to develop such things.
Maybe the computers of some American shipyards, Naval Architects and Marine Technology firms have been hacked and it is all stolen American technology?

We shall see in a few years, when the first autonomous ship is in operation in Scandinavia.

LNG fuel is clean and you don’t need to clean the purifier. O yeah you don’t even need a fuel purifier just LO purifiers. No house, no provisions, and no crew payroll. Checkout the robot trucks in Rotterdam and Hamburg Germany in the container yards.