The Prestige incident should be well known to most. After 14 years the 80-something Master has been sentenced to 2 years in a Spanish prison in a knee jerk decision to save the blushes of the Spanish authorities who refused him safe haven when he requested it.
Responding to the Spanish Supreme Court’s decision to sentence Captain Mangouras to two years imprisonment over the 2002 Prestige oil spill, ITF seafarers’ section chair Dave Heindel said: “This decision represents the dying gasps of a 14 year old attempt to deflect blame onto the shoulders of an octogenarian man, who has been cleared in the court of world opinion and by his peer “Thankfully it is likely to be as unenforceable as it is illogical. This innocent man cannot again be made to sit needlessly in jail.” He concluded: “The Mangouras case was one of the worse examples of the kneejerk criminalisation of seafarers. The ITF, like many other organisations and individuals, was able to support him during that ordeal. This latest piece of victimisation reminds us that we must all remain vigilant to protect seafarers from these injustices.”
Is criminalisation of seafarers a problem also in the USA/North America?
I don’t mean only American seafarers in US waters, but also the “numerous” seafarers that gets arrested in the US for oil spill, even if the incident happened in International waters and on foreign flag ships.
On first reading of the Prestige master’s sentencing I was also outraged at what appears to be more a Spanish face saving move than anything else but now believe that (hiding Spanish and French complicity aside) there is a more important message in this affair. The environmental aspect is a factor but in my opinion is more an emotional hook to gain support for a public hanging.
The master accepted the job knowing the previous master Esfraitos Kostazos refused to sail the ship due to its condition. Mangouras sailed knowing it was overloaded. He placed his own employment above the risk to the lives of his crew. We can’t afford to have people like that in command of anything.
We all know that if we don’t do something the company has a long list of people waiting with bags packed who will. How many of us here have not been squeezed into that corner before? How many have walked like the master before Mangouras? Captain Mangouras should have a few cell mates but justice never seems to pass through the boardroom door.
Having had dealings with the Dubai office of ABS, I can’t help but think someone from that place needs to share a cell next to Mangouras as well.
[QUOTE=ombugge;177928]The Prestige incident should be well known to most. After 14 years the 80-something Master has been sentenced to 2 years in a Spanish prison in a knee jerk decision to save the blushes of the Spanish authorities who refused him safe haven when he requested it.
Is criminalisation of seafarers a problem also in the USA/North America?
I don’t mean only American seafarers in US waters, but also the “numerous” seafarers that gets arrested in the US for oil spill, even if the incident happened in International waters and on foreign flag ships.[/QUOTE]
Yes. And it’s not just Mariners. Far too many minor things have become crimes. Far too many records that never go away. Far too many people in prison.
A few months ago we were talking about the foreign flag ship (German owned?) that was fined several million dollars because the crew dumped half a dozen empty 55 gallon oil drums (sorry that’s not metric) overboard at sea, and later called at a US port. A few teaspoons of hydraulic went into the sea and a few steel drums are rusting away to nothing in the silt in 2000 fathoms of water. This was an extremely trivial international offense that should be none of the US Government’s business.
Thanks for your opinions y’ll. I think this environmental thing has gone too far.
In 1972 my Second mate slipped and didn’t manage to close a manual valve before a couple of barrels of fuel oil spilled into the sea in Kuwait.
I was the Master and got fined 10,000 Pounds, which was eventually paid by the P&I Club.
But MY NAME will always be associated with that spill and if I should “cause” a second spill I would be fine double, tripled or whatever.
If that ship should cause another spill under another Master? First spill.
Luckily she was scrapped soon after, but I’ll still be the “criminal”.
Poor Mangouras was too honest when he asked for permission to enter a port of refuge due to a minor hull crack that had flooded an empty ballast tank of his CBT tanker with hydrastatic balanced cargo oil wing tanks - November 2002. He had at that time not leaked a drop of oil. But port of refuge was refused as somebody feared an oil spill.
Much better is to say you have generator problems or a sick seaman aboard. Mangouras should have ignored the refusal and sailed for the port of refuge anyway. Of course he was found innocent of any wrong doings 2012 but for political reasons the Spanish, French and Portugese governments appealed and finally the Master was found guilty. Sad. http://heiwaco.com/prestige.htm
[QUOTE=Steamer;177932]On first reading of the Prestige master’s sentencing I was also outraged at what appears to be more a Spanish face saving move than anything else but now believe that (hiding Spanish and French complicity aside) there is a more important message in this affair. The environmental aspect is a factor but in my opinion is more an emotional hook to gain support for a public hanging.
The master accepted the job knowing the previous master Esfraitos Kostazos refused to sail the ship due to its condition. Mangouras sailed knowing it was overloaded. He placed his own employment above the risk to the lives of his crew. We can’t afford to have people like that in command of anything.
We all know that if we don’t do something the company has a long list of people waiting with bags packed who will. How many of us here have not been squeezed into that corner before? How many have walked like the master before Mangouras? Captain Mangouras should have a few cell mates but justice never seems to pass through the boardroom door.
Having had dealings with the Dubai office of ABS, I can’t help but think someone from that place needs to share a cell next to Mangouras as well.
That is very interesting. . . . I say that as a former ABS field surveyor, too. . . .yeah, grubby job. I recall getting to Bludworth Bond Texas City one morning, the same time as a guy driving a flat bed with a new generator for a hawser tug. Didn’t make much notice of him as I went in and changed into my coveralls on that hot July day. In the afternoon, as I was crawling out of the last tank, covered with sweat, rust, grease and a bit of scratches and bruises. . . . he was nearby as they were removing the generator from his truck. When he saw me, he said, “I thought that you had one of those easy jobs”. . . .and I just responded with, “Yeah, me too”. . . I learned much with ABS, not just engineering, naval architecture and such, but also the politics of shipping. It was certainly a low paying job, when compared with similar positions. . . I made lots of overtime with the offshore work to make ends meet. . . but there was always a lot of liability. Nothing worse than getting a call from another port where the Coast Guard had boarded a ship that you recently surveyed. . . . although I do have to admit that the higher ups did give me support when I had to make those hard decisions on the inevitable “rust bucket”. . . .and this was some years before the PRESTIGE incident. . . .
There was a case here in the Singapore Straits a few years ago with one of the Indonesian built fiberglass fast ferries that run around the Indonesia’s Riau Islands, which cracked in the hull about 2/3 way forward , due to insufficient longitudinal stiffeners (not running all the way forward to the bow). I used to see the hulls flexing in an unsanitary way whenever we were punching rough seas. Anyway, one day, a ferry of that design cracked in the hull and sank. The owners and the courts blamed and jailed the captain (who was a poorly paid Indonesian, probably almost illiterate.) No mention was ever made about a defective design.
It was like the Miko Natalia 89. These boats are typically fitted with a couple of pretty powerful MTUs, which can push them along at 24-28 knots. The ones that cracked, didn’t have engine beds extending all the way forward, (as they should). The first pic is a passenger carrying speedboat, probably fitted with 3 or 4 x 250hp Yamaha outboards.
not to mention all the life rafts fell to bits in the water, was lots of expats so they could all swim
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[QUOTE=ombugge;177928]The Prestige incident should be well known to most. After 14 years the 80-something Master has been sentenced to 2 years in a Spanish prison in a knee jerk decision to save the blushes of the Spanish authorities who refused him safe haven when he requested it.[B]
Is criminalisation of seafarers a problem also in the USA/North America? [/B]
I don’t mean only American seafarers in US waters, but also the “numerous” seafarers that gets arrested in the US for oil spill, even if the incident happened in International waters and on foreign flag ships.[/QUOTE]
The USA is the worst in the world by far for foreign crew as there is no bail for foreigners.
not to mention all the life rafts fell to bits in the water, was lots of expats so they could all swim
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The USA is the worst in the world by far for foreign crew as there is no bail for foreigners.[/QUOTE]
In Italy it is much better for foreign crews on Italian flag ships like M/S Costa Concordia. When anything goes wrong, it is always the fault of the Italian Master not speaking … indonesian. http://heiwaco.com/news8.htm . In this case the poor Master must spend 16+ years in jail. The Asian, low cost, cheap, slave crew are always welcome to slog on 24/24, 7/7, 11/12 down below.
[QUOTE=Evanjonesinbatam;189904]It was like the Miko Natalia 89. These boats are typically fitted with a couple of pretty powerful MTUs, which can push them along at 24-28 knots. The ones that cracked, didn’t have engine beds extending all the way forward, (as they should). The first pic is a passenger carrying speedboat, probably fitted with 3 or 4 x 250hp Yamaha outboards.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Heiwa;189925]In Italy it is much better for foreign crews on Italian flag ships like M/S Costa Concordia. When anything goes wrong, it is always the fault of the Italian Master not speaking … indonesian. http://heiwaco.com/news8.htm . In this case the poor Master must spend 16+ years in jail. The Asian, low cost, cheap, slave crew are always welcome to slog on 24/24, 7/7, 11/12 down below.[/QUOTE]
Are you suggesting that an Indonesian oiler put Concordia on the rocks? Are you crackers? Go on then, explain to me why the Italian officers on the bridge aren’t responsible. Go on.
[QUOTE=Emrobu;189932]Are you suggesting that an Indonesian oiler put Concordia on the rocks? Are you crackers? Go on then, explain to me why the Italian officers on the bridge aren’t responsible. Go on.[/QUOTE]
No no no. It wasn’t an Indonesian oiler who put Concordia on the rocks, it was the Indonesian AB at the wheel who refused to turn it even though Shit-ino was yelling at him to do so. It’s possible the AB couldn’t hear him since Shit-ino’s face was probably shoved way up under his girlfriend’s skirt but that damn Asian should have been listening more carefully. It’s all his fault.
IIRC the helm order was to put the wheel to port to allow the stern of the ship to swing clear and the helmsman put the wheel to starboard. It’s a common mistake, the helmsman may have realized that the hazard was close to port and was anticipating an order to turn the ship away from danger, to starboard.
This is a good example why it’s important to be aware of what’s being discussed, fault or cause, if the helmsman had put the wheel over the correct way the stern may have swung clear, so the error was a cause. Was the grouding his fault? He did some jail time for it, but it is a common error.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;189935]IIRC the helm order was to put the wheel to port to allow the stern of the ship to swing clear and the helmsman put the wheel to starboard. It’s a common mistake, the helmsman may have realized that the hazard was close to port and was anticipating an order to turn the ship away from danger, to starboard.
This is a good example why it’s important to be aware of what’s being discussed, fault or cause, if the helmsman had put the wheel over the correct way the stern may have swung clear, so the error was a cause. Was the grouding his fault? He did some jail time for it, but it is a common error.[/QUOTE]
I was responding to Eiwa’s attachment which states Shit-ino was yelling at the helmsman and putting the blame on him. Wasn’t the primary cause of the grounding the captain’s STOOPID (tip of the hat to c.cap) decision to do a very close fly-by in order to impress his new girlfriend or possibly someone else ashore?
We’ve all heard this one: “A superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations that would require the use of his superior skills”. Blaming the helmsman might highlight the captain’s creativeness but sounds like BS since he supposedly had the con and instead of yelling could have grabbed the wheel himself if the helmsman was not responding correctly. His focus was evidently somewhere else.
Ok, you two have carefully done your research, and always seem to be on the side of reasonable human beings. So whatever you do, don’t click that link. I love a good conspiracy theory, but that one is crackers, blame-shifting, irresponsible, childish, and xenophobic.
[QUOTE=Emrobu;189938]Ok, you two have carefully done your research, and always seem to be on the side of reasonable human beings. So whatever you do, don’t click that link. I love a good conspiracy theory, but that one is crackers, blame-shifting, irresponsible, childish, and xenophobic.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;189935]IIRC the helm order was to put the wheel to port to allow the stern of the ship to swing clear and the helmsman put the wheel to starboard. It’s a common mistake, the helmsman may have realized that the hazard was close to port and was anticipating an order to turn the ship away from danger, to starboard.
This is a good example why it’s important to be aware of what’s being discussed, fault or cause, if the helmsman had put the wheel over the correct way the stern may have swung clear, so the error was a cause. Was the grouding his fault? He did some jail time for it, but it is a common error.[/QUOTE]
The helmsman was sentenced to about a year and a half but I don’t think he served. As for Shitino: "Survivors, shivering as they staggered ashore on Giglio Island, were startled to see the captain, already safe on land, “without even getting his feet wet,” How can you believe this guy when he points the finger at the helmsman. He threw him under the bus to save his own neck but it didn’t work.
