Can you blame a guy for not running towards a fire?


Training all police to a national standard intended for high crime cities is a big mistake. The police are now far too aggressive and trigger happy. I chose to live and work in safe, mostly rural, areas with very little crime. Criminals do not worry me, but I am afraid of the police.


I agree and love in a rural area too but I don’t worry about being shot. If the cop is a combat vet he won’t be trigger happy… otherwise most cops can’t hit the side of a barn. Bullets are expensive so most departments canceled regular range practice long ago. Even new recruits aren’t given range time… and some departments require as low as 30 shots to qualify to carry a pistol (a few decades ago it was hundreds).

Now if multiple cops are on scene… then you’re right in worrying. The most important lesson you acn teach your kids is that blue flashing lights mean stay FAR AWAY. Gawkers not only get shot occasionally but they are far more likely to get arrested.

That said I do worry about being wrongly arrested and loosing my liscense. My father in law was a cop and this happens way more often than you would imagine (even to white people).


This is what I’m expecting. Sad but true.


Wow; I read EVERY post before responding ! Deck Ape was closest to what i think and Sand Pebble, I WOULD distance myself from the guy who missed the fire and assign him suitable duty in the future.
John, I didn’t make it thru the movie…too long!!
I remember leading convoy in Iraq and having to make a decsion whether to halt the mission or ride thru this or that danger zone… i recall looking at pointer sticks wondering if i should be looking at the ‘bad spot’ while passing or take it in the face … We had to go, the cop in question may not of HAD to go but I suppose by now he sure wishes he’d of gone in there.
It is best summed up by Gregory Peck in “12-0-clock high” where he tells his men to give themselves up for dead right now… it makes it easier to get on with the mission. To relate now: the USCG says you gotta go out but you don’t have to come back. That cop felt the obligation to go in, i like to think most cops would of walked in there realizing they had a 50/50 chance of getting out but to acually sit on the sidelines is not in any ‘heroes’ budget.
and of course, there are ‘other’ ways of dealing with this but it all comes down to finding a bad guy in the room with a gun/bomb/whatever and you have reaction time to live or die.
And John, I sure wouldn’t volunteer to ride the plane into the tower !!, I’d rather not be involved but if i was I guess you do the right thing whether you want to or not because surviving not doing that… ain’t worth it.


So John!
If you and I, along with many others believe this theory. How can we as Americans support and detour the political, and social media hacking of America being hacked by China, Russia, and North Korea.
I sincerely hope we can combat this destruction of our Countr>


IDK, the knternet was not designed to be secure.


That’s a good rhing, means you are normal. Just promise me you won’t sign up to be a cop :wink:


Working on a Large ATB with a 10 man crew, you need everyone to not only know their job but to be able to trust them to do it!

One time we a “small” emergency, the mate had retracted the Intercon pins instead of extending them while we were in 10-15 foot seas. The AE almost froze but came around, the cook was a different animal. After we (the Captain and I (CE)) got the pins back out we realized that the cook was missing. After a few terrifying minutes he was found up on the Barge in the Office!

So, until you have a real emergency, you have no idea how anyone will react!


It’s not just individuals, it’s a crew dynamic phenomena. Having a robust crew helps in an emergency.

According to Freud individuals are more likely to panic if and when they stop feeling like part of a crew .

“If an individual in panic fear begins to be solicitous only on his own account, he bears
witness in so doing to the fact that the emotional ties, which have hitherto made the danger seem small to him, have ceased to exist. Now that he is by himself in facing the danger, he may surely think it greater.”

In other words when an individual ceases to feel like part of the crew the danger seems greater.

This is fromThe Collapse of Sensemaking in Organizations: The Mann Gulch Disaster (pdf) by Karl E. Weick

Weick’s source is the book Young Men and Fire – 1992 by Norman Maclean


Were I a cop I believe the correct “cop” attitude would be to “do your duty” and take your chances…
The odds of survival favor the well trained and equipped, you don’t think every ww1 and ww2 victim was a victim because of the ““silver”” bullet do you? … NO, If you adhere to the training, endure the bs of wearing your gear, your chances of survival are greatly increased … I should think Korea alone would prove this, and as someone mentioned: a combat veteran GENERALLY makes a better cop because the other cops only have the hope of being able to commit them selves to the cause… the soldier on the line has no other choice. But to further this: once a individual commits their soul to their cause: , be it a fire fighter, a cop, a soldier, sailer, realizing you are at the mercy of whatever despite your training you will die a gallant death… but again, the odds favor the prepared and the individual prepared to face death in its’ cause perform better… and more likely… infallibly… whether you “catch” the silver bullet or not.


The smaller crew sizes of ATBs and string boats require all to pretty much be able to handle stressful moments. Quick action regarding fires (I have first hand experience with this) has kept minor incidents from expanding into major catastrophes. . . .


Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once.


This video goes against everything I’ve ever learned as a ship Captain.


Are you referring to accountability???

That’s so early aughts. We are in the teens now. Next comes the roaring twenties!


Surely if you’re in a position where it’s in the description to respond to an emergency, it is your duty to do so. No one made you take that job, you signed up for it.

If my ship catches fire and I am called upon to fight it and refuse or instead run from it, I will be up in front of the Captain explaining myself and likely facing punishment. Military’s a bit different obviously, but even on the civilian side your shipmate’s lives may depend on your actions. We all know this going into the job, right? It’s part of being at sea.

That being said, the training is always “report it and get more people to help you,” never “find it and fight it yourself.” The idea would be to combat a problem as a team instead of as an individual, as the team is stronger and has a better chance of saving everyone / the ship.


Years ago, the established police response to active shooters was to wait until several officers could form a unit in order to attack the shooter from different angles. Lessons learned in the Columbine shooting in 1999 changed that. There are training scenarios to prepare for it and every sworn police officer is aware or should be aware of the established response. It has proven itself in a dozen cases where the carnage was stopped in its tracks by the first person to arrive armed with a pistol.


“If I have to choose between attempting to put out a fire or spending my life thinking of myself as a coward I will surely try to put out a fire”

I’ve thought about these situations a lot. Way back when while living in Alaska, two people died if different incidents over a year’s time. In both cases, they died trapped, couldn’t get out even after 30+ minutes and plenty of people trying to help.
I decided that if ever presented with such a scenario I’d do whatever neccessary, no matter the risk to myself, to assist. Knowing if i didn’t i could never get over the guilt that i didn’t try enough.
I know everyone is not like me and I’m not judging others. But i know what i can live with or not.


All these heroic proclamations sounds great. ‘Run into the teeth of danger and save the children!’ Only trouble is flee or freeze has been a successful survival instinct over the past few hundred million years. When faced with danger critters and people will frequently freeze or flee.

It’s the fault of those people that decided that one insufficiently trained person alone should do a job that goes against normal survival instincts. It would be like a ship designer deciding that no emergency generators were needed because the main engine shouldn’t fail. Or that firefighting gear isn’t needed because the crew have been ordered not to let fires start.


This is a guest post by Ari Kohen, Assistant Professor of Political Philosophy at University of Nebraska-Lincoln and author of Untangling Heroism

Heroes Aren’t Born, They’re Made.

Saying “I’m sure I’d be a hero” isn’t one of the things that makes you more likely to be a hero. 99% of people think they’ll do the heroic thing.


That’s not 100% accurate.

While most people either flee or freeze a small percentage of the population has always had the genetic switch to run towarrs the fire.

Modern science believes these people are those with severe cases of ADHD. The brains of people with ADD have smaller dopamine and adrenaline glands (thats pretty much all ADD is). When a crowd is spooked EVERYONE’s brains orders a max push of drugs. The people with large dopamine (a downer) glands freeze and those with large adrenaline (an upper) glands flee.

But ADD folks always run at low levels of dopamine and adrenaline (thats why they offen feel lethargic… which is why they often act out to boost their dopamine levels)… when danger strikes their small glads give max output but that only gets them a little above “normal” levels. Suddenly they are feeling great and perceptive while everyone else is freezing or freaking out.

ADD people feel lethargic and “out of it) most of the time because, from a genetic protection merhod, they are not suppose to work. They are suppose to mope around the tribal village and Litteraljy do nothjng but stare into the woods untill the enemy shows up.

The problem is two fold:

  1. The medical profession doesn’t measure glands and misdiagnoses of ADD ( MANY people who have it are not diagnosed and many normal people get misdiagnosed) so nobody really knows who is honestly add anymore.
  2. The social mechanism put in place by our DNA to stare into the woods and do nothjng isn’t accepted by society today. To advance as a cop tou need to be good at paperwork which means just to oerform today’s job you are either not ADD or self-medicate.

ADD people are great at running into fire. They thrive on it. But a coo who is ADD is never going to get (nor does he want) an administrative job like school bullshit officer.

So, I agree 100%, we do need to respect our genetic makeup… it’s just nkt as sime as fight or flee.