Any Help From MARAD?

KPChief wrote:

By the way, why is it that so many of these new modern Norwegian vessels are having hulls built in Poland or Turkey (some in Germany too?) then towed to Norway for completion? Why don’t they build the whole ship in those yards? Are they trying to get around some law or something?

Hulls are built in Eastern Europe, but not excursively, mainly because the cost of welding steel is very high in Norway.
Imported labour doesn’t help either, because they have to be paid same wages and receive same benefit as Norwegian workers.

There is one yard that still build their own hulls from scratch, which is Kleven Maritime: http://www.klevenmaritime.no/english
How can they compete? By a very high degree of automation and use of technology at all levels, incl. administration etc.
In fact they just received an order for two Polar Expedition Cruise vessels, with options for two more, from Hurtigruten.
This contract was obtained in sharp competition with 11 other yards worldwide: Hurtigruten orders first newbuilds in more than ten years

This contract was awarded in compliance with OECD restrictions on subsidies: http://www.oecd.org/sti/ind/shipbuildingagreement-overview.htm
Also according to EU rule for free competition and open bidding, which Norway has to comply with, although not a EU member.

There is no law restricting building Norwegian registered ships anywhere in the world. Even fishing vessels, ferries or for coastal trade. It is free competition, as it should be in an international business like shipping.

I would like to clear up something and apologize if it was not clear enough:
I did not imply that American Mariners are not as capable as anybody else, within their fields.
As stated several times, I have worked with Americans worldwide for over 40 years, both Marine and Rig crews.
I have also worked with Americans on all levels of education, from illiterate to degree holders, and at he highest level of Management. As you say, some are knowledgeable and capable beyond their education level and the position they hold, some the other way around, everywhere.

In my earliest days in the Offshore business (1970s) the majority in Senior positions on the boats and rigs working around the world were held by Americans. Many with a lack of formal education, but making up for it with experience and ingenuity, and lack of inhibition when it came to what could be done. (I worked with many of the pioneers who “invented” the technology that started the Offshore business in the GOM)

My comment was intended to state that the Offshore vessels under US flag and their equipment and capabilities is lacking behind. Partly because of lack of support from MARAD and partly because of an attitude that “this is how we have always done it”, as well as the inability to see that “cheap is NEVER good / GOOD is never cheap” on the part of Owners.

As far as I know there are few, if any, US flag boats that is equipped to take on the tasks now being performed by foreign boats in deep water GOM and around the world. Why?? You tell me.

[QUOTE=ombugge;183611]

So yes, USA contribution is far more total funds, but far less per head.
[/QUOTE]

Well you got me there.

[QUOTE=Steamer;183610]So how come corporate doors are not locked for a few years when they are convicted of a crime?[/QUOTE]

Amen brother, you type it up and I’ll sign it.

[QUOTE=ombugge;183613]
As far as I know there are few, if any, US flag boats that is equipped to take on the tasks now being performed by foreign boats in deep water GOM and around the world. Why?? You tell me.[/QUOTE]

Well GOM support vessels is not a sector I know much about. However, I suspect it has to do with cost of operation more than technological capabilities of our engineering and shipyards. Maybe goes something like this: a need for specialized vessel is recognized. A leaseholder gets a waiver to bring in a foreign flag unit to do the job. Using lower cost crew on an existing vessel is obviously less expensive than designing something from scratch and then building it. Of course this doesn’t address why US operators don’t speculate with their own money to build this high tech vessel you speak of for the next time there is a need. Unless the market is too sporadic and the vessel would be off-hire for too much of its life.

More than the “why” though, what is the size of this issue in the GOM? Not counting drillships and semi’s how many foreign flag support vessels or specialized intervention/subsea work vessels are in the GOM working and how long do they stay?

We got boats that can do most of the work required. A US company needs to build a big pipe layer and we will have most everything here in the GOM. What is needed is a government to enforce the laws.

http://hornbeckoffshore.com/fleet/featured/hosmpsv-fleet/310-class-mpsv/hos-bayou

http://hornbeckoffshore.com/fleet/featured/hosmpsv-fleet/430-class-mpsv/hos-iron-horse

http://hornbeckoffshore.com/fleet/featured/hosmpsv-fleet/310es-class-mpsv/hos-warland

http://hornbeckoffshore.com/fleet/featured/hos-accommodation-support-fleet/310eqh-class-osv/hos-briarwood

http://hornbeckoffshore.com/fleet/featured/hos-accommodation-support-fleet/hosmpsv-flotel/hos-riverbend

http://hornbeckoffshore.com/fleet/featured/hosmpsv-fleet/400es-class-mpsv/hos-warhorse

agreed that US companies have all the equipment needed to do the work but many of those companies also love to circumvent the law and use foreign crews. I hear J Ray McDermott is using foreign personnel again after they went American back in the late 90’s.

What is needed is a government to enforce the laws.

and I thought your company was supposed to be lobbing the Federal government to start doing that? Why haven’t they been able to make any progress in this regard? Surely a NYSE listed offshore support player like HOS would have enough clout in Washingtoon to get in the door…has the low price of oil impacted their lobbying budget too?

as an aside but MarAd has absolutely nothing to do with the issuance of waivers for foreign vessel personnel in the GoM. That is the USCG’s responsibility in which they fail miserably to ensure that American mariners be protected.

[QUOTE=KPChief;183624]Well you got me there.[/QUOTE]

Isn’t the Internet wonderful? You can find statistics to prove anything you want to fit your argument.:wink:

Q: If you take an assumption, multiply it with an arbitrary factor and feed it into a computer, what happens??
A: Out comes “Gospel truth”.
Who can argue with a Computer?

I was referring to vessels that looks somewhat like these: http://www.subsea7.com/en/media-centre/datasheets/vessel-datasheets.html
How many US-flag vessels are there with comparable capabilities as the majority of these vessels?

As said earlier; to compete you have to have the vessels, equipment and capabilities, which requires the ability and will to develop the technology, which again requires the support of the Government in terms of funds for R&D.

The company operating these vessels are active all over the world, with one of their main operating bases in Houston Tx.: http://www.subsea7.com/en/about-us/where-we-operate.html
I don’t know how many of their vessel that is presently operating in GOM, but maybe somebody else on this forum knows?

It is not the only foreign company that operate this type vessels there, some of them US Construction Companies with foreign flag vessels in their fleet. (McDermott, Helix, Oceneering etc.) Many of them owned by companies right here in my new hometown, Aalesund, Norway. Others in my former hometown, Singapore.

I must again point out that foreign flag and foreign crew doesn’t always mean lower operating costs. Some of these vessels are NOR flagged, with full Marine crew on Norwegian wages and conditions. It is defiantly not cheaper then to use US crew on day rate.

PS> The Construction Crew, Technicians, Admin. personnel and 3rd Party personnel etc. may be US or other nationalities.

[QUOTE=ombugge;183644]

I must again point out that foreign flag and foreign crew doesn’t always mean lower operating costs. Some of these vessels are NOR flagged, with full Marine crew on Norwegian wages and conditions. It is defiantly not cheaper then to use US crew on day rate.

PS> The Construction Crew, Technicians, Admin. personnel and 3rd Party personnel etc. may be US or other nationalities.[/QUOTE]

ombugge,
You must understand by now that the average US worker has been brainwashed into believing he/she is the cause of US corporate lack of profits due to their high wages. There is a kernel of truth to that argument. The average US worker doesn’t have access to the same level of technical training as that of their European counterparts at little cost so one gets less expertise per dollar spent. Additionally, Europeans for the most part come with a built in medical program and social safety net which reduces the bottom line for those that hire them. The USA seems determined to hold their workers to the wages and qualifications of 3rd world countries in order to “compete”. In the convoluted world of US policy maintaining anything other than the lowest standards is evil and socialistic.
More than one oil company given the choice of hiring a European contractor in the USA or a US contractor chose the European as they are more cost effective. The oil companies don’t really care how much a contractors people get paid per hour or day, they just care about total cost/job performance.

[QUOTE=tengineer1;183672]ombugge,
You must understand by now that the average US worker has been brainwashed into believing he/she is the cause of US corporate lack of profits due to their high wages. [/quote]
I have known that for a long time, but been too polite to use the word “brainwashed”. Now that you mention it, that is not the only subject this applies to.

There is a kernel of truth to that argument. The average US worker doesn’t have access to the same level of technical training as that of their European counterparts at little cost so one gets less expertise per dollar spent. Additionally, Europeans for the most part come with a built in medical program and social safety net which reduces the bottom line for those that hire them.

In most North West European countries education is free, incl. at University level. Cheap loans and Grants are available to cover other expenses as well. In addition you have near free medical. Pension and social security is covered true your taxes.
Yes it means high tax burden, but you don’t go bankrupt if you get hurt, or even crippled and your Insurance company find some way of cancelling your insurance plan.

I believe you may be wrong on the cost to employers though. In Norway anyhow there are a hefty Employer contribution towards the Social Welfare system. I don’t know the figure now, but when I had to deal with it, we multiplied the direct wage costs with 1.45 to get actual “Cost of Labour”. Maybe comparable to the cost of medical insurance, 401K etc. for an American employer??
Since European seafarers are mostly “permanently” employed, salaried and the work schedule is even time, with full pay and per diem when off, holiday pay, travel expenses to/from work site anywhere in the world etc.etc., it is hard to believe that US “Labour cost” is actually more.
(No, I DO NOT say that this apply to ALL foreign Seafarers)

The USA seems determined to hold their workers to the wages and qualifications of 3rd world countries in order to “compete”. In the convoluted world of US policy maintaining anything other than the lowest standards is evil and socialistic.
More than one oil company given the choice of hiring a European contractor in the USA or a US contractor chose the European as they are more cost effective. The oil companies don’t really care how much a contractors people get paid per hour or day, they just care about total cost/job performance.

I will not comment on the first part, but having spent a lot of time explaining to “Marine” people in Oilcos, American and otherwise, that a small boat with low fuel consumption at full speed and at low day rate is NOT NECESSARILY the cheapest and most efficient to the Charterer. How much of the time does an AHTS need to use “full power”? How much of the time does the same vessel spend idling in the field, waiting for somebody to make up their mind what they want him to do? I,m sure somebody here can chip in with their estimate.

Conclusion: A boat with large and diverse cargo capacity and fuel efficient at slow speed, cost far less to the Charterer than to have to hire two smaller boats to do the same job.

PS> I was asked by a pised off Captain on an OSV: Do you know what an Offshore half-hour is. You know, “I’ll be back to you in half-an-hour”???
His own Answer; "Anything from 15 min. to FU
KING ETERNITY"

[QUOTE=Fraqrat;183634]We got boats that can do most of the work required. A US company needs to build a big pipe layer and we will have most everything here in the GOM. What is needed is a government to enforce the laws. [/QUOTE]

The US government is letting markets work and supporting the free enterprise system ! IF there is a law being violated you should insist your congress critter demand to enforce it or promise to not vote for them no matter what they promise about other crap that does not affect your way of making a living. However since the overwhelming majority of voters don’t even know the names of their representatives I don’t put a lot of hope in that . If you watch TV you’d think one half the country thinks building a wall across Mexico will solve the country’s problems and the other half thinks giving everyone a free college education will do it. We have plenty of college educated people unemployed already. Any more graduates and they’d just be replaced by foreigners for less money with a H1b visa. Any USA company can tell you how to pull that off, start with Infosys, Tata, IBM, Google etc. who employ a ton of H1B visa holders. No one in congress is looking into this because of…?
Building a wall will just stop the Mexicans from going back as they have been doing for the last few years because right now Mexico sucks less than the US as far as they are concerned.
Write or call your representative and let us know what they say they have done lately to insist the USCG enforce the law and protect mariner jobs or any other jobs for that matter.